Our Saboteur and Sage

Sue MannSeason 3Episode 12


Sue Mann is a trauma-trained coach whose focus is on ending the suffering and destruction of organizational morale and value by abrasive, bullying leaders. She talks about our saboteur and our sage voices, and how we can tap into our sage voice when we give and receive feedback.


Sue Mann

Sue Mann


Sue Mann has been described by her clients as a soul coach for those traumatized by work. Her focus is on ending the suffering and destruction of organizational morale and value by abrasive, bullying leaders. Deeply compassionate and courageous in holding people to account for their behavior. She is also the rare executive coach who is trauma trained and understands how trauma shows up in the workplace, drives behavior, and impacts organizational performance.


Troy Blaser (00:04):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast hosted by LearningBridge. I'm your host, Troy Blaser. We're pleased today to be joined for this episode by Sue Mann. Let me give you some of Sue's background here real quick before we bring Sue into the conversation. Sue has been described by her clients as a soul coach for those traumatized by work. Her focus is on ending the suffering and destruction of organizational morale and value by abrasive, bullying leaders. Deeply compassionate and courageous in holding people to account for their behavior. She is also the rare executive coach who is trauma trained and understands how trauma shows up in the workplace, drives behavior, and impacts organizational performance. Sue, it's so great to have you join us on today's episode. Thanks for being here.
Sue Mann (00:55):
Troy. It is a true delight to be here. I am really looking forward to our conversation today.
Troy Blaser (01:03):
Well, thanks. I'm looking forward to it as well. I wanted to maybe start today. It helps us get to know you a little bit and these are always wonderful stories. But, I wonder if you could tell us about a time that somebody gave you feedback in your life and perhaps it had an impact on your life or on your career, or whether it's personal or professional or whatever it might be. But could you share a story with us about a time that you received some impactful feedback?
Sue Mann (01:31):
Absolutely. And it's funny because as you asked that question, even as I knew which story I wanted to go to, I was noticing my heart starting to elevate. Because this is what so often happens when just like right there, that's one of the telltale signs of, oh my gosh, I'm about to tell a story that feels a little hard and I'm connecting that to yeah that's what it's like to be in these feedback conversations. You immediately start going my heart's pounding, what's going to happen, what's coming. Alright.
Troy Blaser (02:03):
Sue Mann (02:05):
I'm thinking of one that actually happened just a few months ago and, I'm a coach, right. And you would think that coaches are masterful at giving and receiving feedback. Maybe, but maybe we're also human beings and we mess up.
Troy Blaser (02:24):
For sure. Yes.
Sue Mann (02:26):
So this is a story of coaches giving each other feedback, which in and of itself is fascinating. So I am part of a group of coaches. We are organized around topics and we meet monthly to sort of share and coordinate with each other. And the convener of that meeting is the chair of the meeting. And I am new to this group. It's been meeting for a while. And on my second time on that meeting, something came up that really sort of hit a bit of a nerve for me around a value, a principle that is really important to me. It's around a sort of an equity issue around how are we recognizing, appreciating value, volunteer time that is contributed especially to a for-profit organization in this case.
Sue Mann (03:23):
So I had no, I hadn't at the time of the meeting, it wasn't even on my mind, but somebody raised something and I was like, hmm, no, I need to speak up right here, right now. I need to say something. This is too important to me. So I did. I spoke into the issue that was on my mind and it didn't land so well with the chair of the group. And he, well, he disagreed with me a little bit and I'm like, yeah, I hear you, but actually, this is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm hearing. And I was just speaking to sort of a real concern on my heart. The meeting ended and I just sort of go my way. Nothing more is on my mind.
Troy Blaser (04:07):
Sue Mann (04:08):
Couple of hours later I get a text message on a group thread, where the other person on that group thread has not even been in that meeting. I get a text message from this person and he says, Sue, I hope you find what you're looking for and I hope you don't find yourself in the position I ended up in this meeting. You speak of power dynamics and workplace bullying. I wonder if you are aware of the position you put others in via the group dynamic. I know I'm doing my best and can't please everyone. I just don't feel like being attacked, especially when I work so hard to serve so many. I wish you all the best. And then he exited the group. That landed like an absolute gut punch.
Troy Blaser (05:04):
Sue Mann (05:05):
I was like, what just happened? And I had to work really hard to then go, okay. He literally just dropped a bomb at my feet. And it just exploded. Now what do I do? So that was a recent, that was a recent story.
Troy Blaser (05:32):
So getting the feedback, number one, you weren't expecting it. You hadn't realized maybe what had happened for him in that meeting. You had left the meeting and just went on your way, but then to get it via a text message, just sort of out of the blue, like you say, landed like a gut punch.
Sue Mann (05:50):
Yeah, very much so.
Troy Blaser (05:53):
Interesting. And you know, here you thought you were standing up for a principle that you believed in, but in that particular call or in that conversation, it was difficult for the chair to not feel attacked by kind of what you said.
Sue Mann (06:11):
When I read that message, so one of the frameworks we use in my coaching tool back toolbox is a mental fitness framework, from positive intelligence. And that framework is that sort of like, we have almost two warring voices in our head. One is our sort of our saboteurs, our judge voice. and the other is our sage, sort of our wise voice versus our sort of stressed out survival saboteur voice.
Troy Blaser (06:42):
Sue Mann (06:44):
And so when you get feedback like this, critical negative feedback like this, it is your saboteurs, it is that survival part of yourself that absolutely gets first crack. And this just felt, this felt threatening to me and it immediately activated my stress responses. I mean, I knew exactly what was happening. It's like, oh yeah, here comes my stress response. And we can talk about those as I say, and I'm trauma trained. So one of the other things we teach is when you give feedback from this state of your activation of stress, which you in saboteur mode, when you are in a judging mode and you deliver feedback from that place, it is going to be felt as an attack too. So just as he was feeling attacked, I now was feeling attacked in return. Are we actually capable of hearing and listening to each other? Not so much. Or we're both hunker down immediately into defensive positions. Because that's what we do. As soon as our amygdala perceives a threat, we go to Defcon 1, or in my case Defcon 10 or whatever it was.
Troy Blaser (08:04):
Yeah, for sure.
Sue Mann (08:05):
We defend ourselves from that threat. And that's just a normal human reaction, especially when this feedback is coming out of left field.
Troy Blaser (08:15):
And you even mentioned even preparing to tell the story on our podcast today, you felt some of that same fight or flight response, You know, your amygdala's going, wait, we're thinking about this story again. Do I need to get ready for something?
Sue Mann (08:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. And so you can see how sort of like this situation, it's just been this, you know, as a coach, it's been incredibly rich for me to unpack for myself because it's touched on, you know, how our stress responses, you know, that fight or flight or freeze or appease in my case, which is one of the other stress responses. Got first crack. How our saboteurs get first crack. Then I also got to think through the fundamental attribution error around, you know, and we can explore that if we want to, I don't know if it's happened on your podcast before, but just this one brief interaction. Whoa. There's a whole universe inside of it around feedback, when it works, when it doesn't and why.
Troy Blaser (09:21):
Yeah. Well, I thought it was interesting the way you talked about the two voices, right? The saboteur voice and the sage voice. I assume, but I can ask, have you had experiences around feedback where it's coming from instead of from the saboteur voice? That feedback is coming from the sage voice?
Sue Mann (09:40):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so different, Troy. So.
Troy Blaser (09:46):
What, yeah. Tell us about what does that look like?
Sue Mann (09:50):
So, funnily enough, it's also with another coach community. And this is a group of coaches who are talking to each other around trauma and coaching. So we are a newly formed group and we meet once a month and we have our ground rules and, stuff around how we engage and show up to each other. And all of us are coming from a trauma-informed, trauma-sensitive framework.
Troy Blaser (10:16):
Sue Mann (10:16):
So at our third meeting, someone hasn't been for the first two meetings, so hasn't been part of the whole ground setting and what have you. At our third meeting, someone comes onto that call and she's sort of, she comes onto this call, and let's call her Felicity. And she sort of says she asked to speak to something that was on her mind about how the group is operating, the kinds of things that we were doing. And then in the words of other people who were there, she launched into a lecture that left most participants in the meeting feeling schooled and judged. And for the rest of the meeting, most of the other members of the group were unusually quiet, restrained. And I, you know, we're watching them on the video camera, you see how they withdrawing. So, you know, the leadership team of this group was sort of like, okay, what the hell just happened?
Sue Mann (11:14):
And we were like, what did, firstly, like what did we do? How did we screw up? What was our part of this? And then the second thing was, what the hell did she think she was doing? These were all the thoughts that came up for us. And one of the other things we needed to clear and sort of check in with each other. Was it just me? Was it just me who was having a reaction? Was every, or were many of us having the reaction? Okay. So we found out, yeah. Many of us were having this reaction. Okay. So it wasn't just me responding to this. It was oh yeah, this truly was sort of the impact that it happened across multiple people. And so now of course I'm the co-chair it becomes me and my co-chair's responsibility to, alright, we are going to need to tell her something. Because we can't have her, you know, this was really negatively impacting the engagement of the group.
Sue Mann (12:13):
Yeah. So we knew almost precisely in this case, because we are all coming from a trauma-trained background, that we had to do our own work on ourselves first. We were feeling angry and blindsided and undermined. We were feeling like we'd failed to manage the meeting appropriately. And we were definitely feeling very judgmental towards Felicity. And the, so the first thing we needed to do is that we coached each other through that and we tiered all of that stuff because we knew that the last thing we wanted to do was deliver this kind of sensitive critical feedback when we were in the grip of our saboteurs. It took us a couple of sessions with each other to really do that. And then we got to this really grounded calm space where we knew that truly we could be present to her, that we needed to have this conversation with her.
Sue Mann (13:18):
Not to put her in her place, not to blame her or judge her, but to really help her understand from a place of complete love and caring what the impact of her energy had been. And I just remember having this sort of visceral, like a completely heart open towards her, as you know, scheduled this call. And we had a beautiful discussion, Troy. I mean, tears were shed. Laughter happen. There were these powerful insights and breakthroughs for all three of us. And there was really profound healing around painful and traumatic experiences that each of us have had with feedback when it's delivered in a manner that it's so harmful. And so when we ended that meeting, they were, we were just in a state of awe and gratitude of it is possible to deliver critical feedback in a way that is truly from a place of sage.
Sue Mann (14:33):
Truly from a place of love. And honestly, by the end of that conversation, I felt a deeper connection with her as a human being. And she just, she was like, I just felt loved and heard and supported and I know that you are here with me. And we didn't actually leave it there. You know, I knew, I love Brene Brown's stuff, I knew that even while that had been a really positive experience, it was still a profoundly vulnerable experience and the vulnerability hangover was likely to set in. I fully expected that even although Felicity had felt heard and supported at some point, yep. Shame was going to catch up. The saboteurs were going to go, What the hell do you think you were doing? And I anticipated that and I sort of, it's like Felicity I'm going to check in with you again on Friday.
Sue Mann (15:32):
I'm going to see how you're doing. I'm here to help and support you as you process this on through. And we actually had a few follow-up conversations cause yeah, it absolutely, it took a while to process on through, but we didn't just deliver and walked away. It's like, deliver and stay with her. And I said to her, my job here is to continue to support you as coach so that you process this on through so that you take what you need to take from this. And by the time of our next monthly meeting, she had owned her part of this, she had given, come back, she'd given a public apology to the group in a really genuine, authentic, warm human way. And it had been received like just there was a warm appreciative response back. And so the air was really cleared and relationships and trusts were deepened. So it's so fascinating. I mean, these two visceral experiences within the space of literally a few months of each other. One is almost textbook how not to give feedback.
Troy Blaser (16:40):
Sue Mann (16:42):
And how not to take feedback as well. You know, my own reaction to it and the other one much more of yeah. When feedback is done right. It truly can lead to sort of some profound breakthroughs. And even when feedback is done really, really badly and wrong, it can also lead to profound breakthroughs. It's just that there's a whole lot more.
Troy Blaser (17:08):
Yeah. Yeah. A lot more of that fight or flight response along the way. Right. And the, we have a saying or, or a sort of, almost a motto that we have here at LearningBridge around feedback and that is to receive feedback graciously and act on it visibly. And I love that story about Felicity because that's kind of really exactly what happened. You were, and the other leaders were able to get to the right spot to be able to deliver that feedback to Felicity in a way that allowed her to receive it graciously. And then, you know, you talked about coming back to the meeting later and sort of cleaning things up with the other members of the group acting on that feedback visibly so that everyone in the group saw that Felicity had heard this, had, you know, made some corrections maybe that needed to be made. And ultimately it sounds like Felicity's relationship with you and with the whole group is maybe better off now than it would've been if the incident hadn't happened in the first place, you know.
Sue Mann (18:08):
We became a whole lot more real and human with each other. It gave us a profound human moment. This didn't just happen. There was support, there was working through, there was processing to make sure that we were not bringing any of that initial, particularly fight response. Because if we delivered feedback from this place of being in our fight or flight, we were only going to activate Felicity's fight or flight.
Troy Blaser (18:41):
Right. Which is what happened in the first incident. Right.
Sue Mann (18:45):
Well, I mean, we still activated her response. Because we weren't in ours, we expected her to have a response, but then we could stay with her and she could feel supported through that response so she should clear it. Whereas the other one, yeah. Let me drop my bombshell and then let me exit the room.
Troy Blaser (19:03):
Yeah. And one difference is the time, you were able to put a little bit of time in the Felicity story, like you say, to allow you to be collected to switch from the saboteur voice to the sage voice. And it sounds like in the first incident that there wasn't that ability to put some space in there, some time in there.
Sue Mann (19:27):
Yeah. And what you saying there, Troy, is so important because we want to give feedback as close in time to the situation as we can with a really important caveat; provided we are in a sage place.
Troy Blaser (19:48):
Right. Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, there's something to be said too about the difference in communication between text and phone call or face-to-face conversation. And I think it can be very difficult to be in that sage voice over text, you know?
Sue Mann (20:08):
Oh yeah. And it, you know, we know how much of communication is nonverbal, right. Because Exactly. I realized how much my own voice, my intonation, the pacing, how the pitch, one of those things. I mean like when I'm sharing this with my clients, just, you know, which do you believe my words or my energy? One of the things I will say is like, which do you believe here, my words or my energy, and I'm going to give you two sentences. One is Troy, you're awful. I absolutely hate you. Please. Versus, yeah, Troy, you're great you're awesome. Love you. Which one do you believe? Do you believe my words? Or do you believe my energy?
Troy Blaser (21:03):
Certainly the energy. Right? And you make me think of times when people will play around with the dog, who's the pet that totally picks up on the energy and has no understanding of those words. And so people, you know, as a joke will be insulting to the dog, but do it in that happy, friendly, good boy voice. And the dog is just like, yeah, I'm ready. What are we going to do? I'm so excited because I can sense that energy. I don't know what the words mean, but I can get the energy. Right. And you lose all that in a text message for sure.
Sue Mann (21:36):
And you've mentioned the amygdala a few times. This is the number one job of our amygdala to scan for threat. And when someone is coming at you with this energy of judgmentalism, criticism, you are a horrible human being. You've just screwed up, you're useless, you're lazy. When even if those are not their words, if that's what they are thinking and feeling on the inside, it is going to come right on through. And so that's why we knew, my co-chair and I, we knew we had to clear all of that energy because it didn't matter otherwise. That was what Felicity was going to be able to hear from us. And you know, in the conversation that I had with the gentleman, let's call him Henry, clearly that's not his real name.
Troy Blaser (22:28):
Okay, sure. Yeah.
Sue Mann (22:30):
That energy was as, it was as clear as daylight.
Troy Blaser (22:36):
Well, and I was going to ask you too though, because it's interesting as a coach and someone who's trained in this, you still sort of, when you got that text from Henry, you sort of observed yourself going into this state, fight or flight.
Sue Mann (22:50):
Oh, I had a total trauma response.
Troy Blaser (22:51):
And yet part of you is sort of the third party sort of observing going, this is what's happening to you, You know, and seeing it happen and the coach in you is sort of watching this happen. I was going to ask you though, what would you recommend, because certainly all of us have those times when we might get feedback that's unexpected or particularly critical and we sort of sense this response coming on. Are there things you would advise for us to be aware of or to mitigate that response when it happens?
Sue Mann (23:24):
Very much so. The number one thing you need to do is give yourself time and space. Like, don't feel like you need to respond right away, but that's so often not what happens in workplace setting. We deliver the feedback and then we expect that person to be able to somehow, immediately have a rational discussion with us. And so I needed to give myself time and space.
Troy Blaser (23:54):
So, Sue, I wanted to come back to something that you mentioned earlier. You talked about the fundamental attribution error. My guess is that, you know, not everyone in our audience is familiar with this. Do you mind just explaining that a little bit? And tell us how that can be important as we're talking about receiving and giving feedback?
Sue Mann (24:14):
Yeah, so the basic idea behind the fundamental attribution error is that when we do something that somebody else might find annoying or get irritated or frustrated with us, it's like we do it because of, we can see, well this is why I was doing what I was doing. But when somebody else does something that annoys or offends or irritated us, we go to, well, why did they do what they did? Well that's because they're a jerk or they're inconsiderate or they're selfish. And so, you know, one of the easiest ways to describe this is, we've all had this experience. When we are thinking about others, we ascribe what is happening to their personality. This is who they are, they're a jerk, they're selfish, therefore they did this. Whereas when we are doing that same thing, it's not because we are selfish inconsiderate or jerks, it's because of some situational context. And one of the really easy ways to sort of tell this is, say you're driving down the road and a car cuts in front of you causing you to have to brake hard to avoid running into the back of it. What do you think about the other driver?
Troy Blaser (25:37):
You know, they're a bad driver, right?
Sue Mann (25:39):
Yeah. Bad driver. Jerk.
Troy Blaser (25:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
Sue Mann (25:42):
You know, something not very nice about them. Right, critical. Same exact thing, but turn the tables, you've just been called by your child's school, there's been an accident and you need to get to the school as soon as possible. You're in a state of high anxiety. A car in front of you is moving slowly, so swearing slightly at slow drivers who don't move over, you pass the car then cut back to the other lane. You have to get to school as soon as you can. So notice what's happening there. When the other driver cuts you off, they're a jerk. When you cut another driver off, it's circumstances that led you to do that. It's not because you're an uncaring, inconsiderate person, it's because you are a caring parent desperate to get to your kid. That's the fundamental attribution error. We attribute somebody else's actions to who they are.
Sue Mann (26:38):
We attribute our own actions to circumstances. That it's not about, and this is what is so fascinating about the fundamental attribution error is what we are seeing, and coming out of social psychology, is circumstances, situations, drive much more of behavior than personality. Much more of behavior than personality. And I can, you know, one of the most, I would almost say it's a must-read for anybody who really wants to understand power dynamics, how systems create situations that drive behavior, is The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo, he of the Stanford prison experiment. He was also expert testimony witness at trial for one of the Abu Ghraib. It's like, why do people do these terrible, bad things? Well, it must be because they're bad people. And so we, you know, that analogy of the apples, it's a couple of bad apples in the barrel.
Sue Mann (27:48):
And what we forget to ask time and time and time again, what barrel are those apples in? And is it the barrel that's rotting the apples? And then beyond that, well who are the barrel makers? And so we focus on, well, they're a bad apple, they're an awful human being. They deserve to be punished. And we don't back up to, but hang on, what were the circumstances in situations that they were in? Would we really ourselves have done anything differently If we were in those circumstances and situations? And what really came out of the Stanford Prison experiment and all the other subsequent studies is we don't know what we would do until we find ourselves in those situations. And if we are convinced we would be the noble person, we delude ourselves and we are more likely to engage in really horrendous behavior and then back it up even more, what are the systems that even set these situations up? So that, you know, that's taking the fundamental attribution error, and expanding it all the way out. But that's the basic idea is like, people do things for a reason. Understand the reasons you understand their behavior.
Troy Blaser (29:10):
So if I think about that in terms of receiving feedback or, you know, thinking about your story with Henry, are there ways that we can receive feedback more gracefully, by keeping in mind the principles of the fundamental attribution error?
Sue Mann (29:29):
For sure. I mean, number one is just recognize it's at play. Like, when I got that feedback from Henry, recognize how I wanted to then go, oh, you called yourself a coach? You should watch yourself! Right there, I'm going to, this is who you are, right? You are unselfaware. You know, it's like, okay, Sue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back it up. There's, it's like, what else might be going on for Henry? If he had this reaction. I don't know, I have no clue what has happened in Henry's life. What are the experiences that he has had, what might have been the stresses or strains that he was carrying in that moment? So that when in that meeting Sue does this thing, he has that reaction. It's like, there's something else going on there you don't see.
Troy Blaser (30:29):
Circumstances that you can't see necessarily. But that's what's driving the behavior.
Sue Mann (30:35):
That is what's driving the behavior and you know, but we're so quick to assume that we know, oh, like this person must be lazy because they're always late to, you know, they don't show up, they procrastinate, they don't meet their deadlines or deliverables. They don't care. No. What's, be curious, you know, the number one antidote to the fundamental attribution error is just be curious. What else could be going on for them?
Troy Blaser (31:08):
Sure. We, you know, at LearningBridge we have a set of core values. One of them is treat everyone with respect. But underneath that, kind of a sub-point that we talk about is to assume positive intent. So, when you're in that situation where you're kind of asking yourself what else is going on? Or what are the circumstances, I try to keep that in mind of, well, let me first assume that the person has a positive intent, even if it's coming off in a negative way to me, that they're trying to do something positive. And now where can I go from there? As opposed to like you say, well this is just a horrible person, or it's who they are is just terrible and mean, you know, let's take a moment and flip it a little bit.
Sue Mann (31:53):
I'm going to pick up on a word you used there.
Troy Blaser (31:56):
Sue Mann (31:57):
Assume. Buried in that word and it's very much on my mind because I've been working through it. It's like, oh, we actually have, it's not necessarily our go-to thought to think, yeah, I know they have positive intent. We, it's sort of like, it's like we actually have to do that little bit of cognitive effort to go, you know, I know I want to go to, they don't have positive intent. I'm going to assume that they are. So just right there is like that little seed of, yeah, we do have to work to make that little bit of mental effort.
Troy Blaser (32:32):
It takes some, it's not the default place to go. We're going to make an assumption about their intention when somebody does something to us. We're going to assume something and the default is negative, Right? The default is they're trying to be rude, they're trying to be mean. And it does, you're right. It takes that little extra effort to say, well now hold on. If I were in their shoes, I would, I don't typically have a mean or negative intent, you know, I'm trying to do things that I believe are good. So probably they are too.
Sue Mann (33:00):
It's helpful to understand, why might we not have that as our default intent? As our default setting? That no, they aren't trying to harm us. That that is not our default setting. And this again comes from understanding sort of the neuroscience. I always like to say we velcro to the negative and Teflon to the positive. And there's a very good reason. When you are hunting on the Savannah and next thing you know, a lion is charging at you, it's not entirely helpful in that moment to assume positive intent. No, you're about to be lunch. You need to make the assumption that this is threat.
Troy Blaser (33:48):
Yes. Very much so. That makes sense.
Sue Mann (33:51):
You have to assume, because if you didn't, if that wasn't your default setting to assume that you were about to be eaten, you were about to be killed, if that wasn't your default setting, now you didn't run away, you looked at the lion and you get nice lion, and your genes ended and didn't get passed down. So it is, our brains pass down the default setting, assume this is about to end your life. Because I would, it is much safer for me as a human being in that context, to assume this is a threat because then if it isn't a threat, I'm still alive. Okay, I can hand my gene down. But if I assumed it wasn't a threat and it was, my genes end. So this is why it sticks around. But now it sticks around when we get like, Sue, when you did that thing in this meeting, I go to my, I'm literally about to die. Because that's just the way our brains are programming. And if we can just, you asked what can you do? The number one thing we can do, pause. Just take that moment. Take that breath. Soon as we can take that pause can start to shift from being in that saboteur to the sage part of our brain. That pause is everything.
Troy Blaser (35:21):
I love it. I think that is a fantastic piece of advice that kind of in some ways sums up our whole conversation this afternoon. Switch from that saboteur to the sage voice, take that breath, make that pause, and be much calmer your responses. I love it.
Sue Mann (35:42):
And depending on the feedback might take more than a breath.
Troy Blaser (35:45):
Yes. Yes. For sure. Right. I love it. Well Sue, this conversation has been fascinating to me this afternoon. I have loved exploring these different areas. I think the two stories about Henry and Felicity were perfect, sort of contrasting experiences to really unpack for a little while. I wanted to ask you, if people have enjoyed this conversation and they want to know more, what should they do? If they want to continue the conversation with you.
Sue Mann (36:12):
They can find me on LinkedIn, just Google Sue Mann and I will come right up. That's a great way to just message and chat with me. There they can also, I put articles out on LinkedIn. They can subscribe to my newsletter there called, you know, Building Compassionate Workplaces where we talk about feedback and trauma and stress and bullying and compassion and saboteurs and sage and mental fitness. And we talk, I talk about all of that stuff in my newsletter there. So that's one way. And if other people would, you know, if they'd like a little bit more of a feedback framework that I use that I give to my clients, then they can just go to, and we'll put this link in the show notes or something. Like www.sansurising.com/feedback and they can download a little resource that I give to my clients to coach them through how to prepare yourself to give feedback. And when you get that feedback, what do you do?
Troy Blaser (37:17):
Awesome. Our guest is Sue Mann. Like she said, you can find her on LinkedIn. You can find her on her website, sansurising.com/feedback. And like you said, Sue we'll put that into the show notes as well. But thank you again for joining us. It's been a wonderful conversation.
Sue Mann (37:33):
Thank you, Troy. Thank you so much for having me.