Leading a Team of Mavericks

Sean Murray (00:00):

They were willing to put themselves out there in other ways. Maybe like for example, feedback. One of the ways that the team gave feedback to one another was the players would write down on four by six cards what they liked and what they didn't like about what the coaches were doing. And the coaches would do the same with the players.

Troy Blaser (00:27):

Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast brought to you by Learning Bridge. I'm your host Troy Blazer and it's great to be with you. Today I'm happy to introduce our guest, Sean P. Murray, who is the CEO and Co-founder of RealTime Performance, specializing in team development. With over 25 years of expertise, Sean excels in leadership development and coaching. Sean is the host of the Good Life Podcast, exploring personal growth and fulfillment. He is also the author of the book, "If Gold is Our Destiny", which delves into achieving personal and professional success by sharing the story of the 1984 Gold medal winning US men's volleyball team. Sean's innovative approach and thought leadership make him a prominent figure in organizational development. Sean, welcome to Simply Feedback. It's so great to have you with us today.

Sean Murray (01:19):

Well, thank you Troy. It's really good to be here. Excited for the conversation.

Troy Blaser (01:23):

Yeah. We often start with this question, but I wonder if you could tell us about a time that somebody gave you feedback maybe that had an impact on your life or marked a turning point for you. Can you share a story with us?

Sean Murray (01:35):

Yeah. You know, feedback can be so powerful and what comes to mind is a time early in my career when I started managing people, I had a small team. I was working with a technology company. I had a developer on my team that was a young man, very good at technology. We hired him right out of college when he was 22. And about six years into his career, he was almost like our chief technology officer. And I remember one day I got pretty upset. We had a long list of features and bugs in our technology that wasn't a well organized list. And we had a customer that was complaining about a certain feature that was not completed yet. And I fired off an email to this gentleman, I'll call him Joe. And uh, kind of a nasty email. I call him a nasty grams when I get them from other people.

Sean Murray (02:27):

But I was young in my career and I was pretty upset that this feature hadn't been released yet, hadn't been worked on. And Joe came in my office and to his credit, didn't fire a nastygram back. And he said, you know, Sean, I got to give you some feedback on this. And it wasn't just the nature of the email. It was, you know, "you're the leader of this team and you can't just expect us to fix the feature that you want fixed in any given time. There needs to be some kind of prioritization. You need to tell us what to work on. And you know, it's not fair to just lob these hand grenades over the wall at us." Because I remember in my email, "I said, aren't there pockets of time that you could just get this done?" I don't know where I came up with this pockets of time. really touched a

Troy Blaser (03:16):

What every manager wishes, every employee had spare pockets of time, right?

Sean Murray (03:20):

I was looking out at this team going, there's time somewhere. Right? And what Joe was saying to me was, you need to do your job. Part of your job as a leader is to help prioritize, help the team prioritize what do you want us to work on now and what's most important, and let's go through this together. And this was feedback that was coming back up the chain of command, so to speak. And it really had a big impact on how I lead and how I work with teams. And often you have to look in the mirror as a leader and say, "okay, what am I doing here?" And, and I really was putting the blame on my team when I should have been leading and working together to figure out what was important. And so we changed how we prioritized features and bugs because the same team that worked on the features worked on the bugs too. So we had to figure out, okay, what's most important feedback can be so powerful. That one always stood out to me, Troy.

Troy Blaser (04:10):

That was bold of Joe, to be able to offer that feedback and gracious of you to accept it. It sounds like you had a moment to pause and say, what you're saying is useful, it's meaningful, it's true. Let's make some changes, let's act in a different way going forward.

Sean Murray (04:25):

Well, I think it took me a little while to make that adjustment. Are you familiar with the Sara acronym with feedback? Sometimes I've used this.

Troy Blaser (04:34):

No. What is that?

Sean Murray (04:36):

Okay. I had to meet Sara first. And so Sara, for me, when I get feedback, I can't remember where I, who taught me this along the way, but in my mind it's surprise, anger, rationalization and acceptance. So, surprise is sort of like, what? Wait, what do you mean you're, you're upset. I'm upset at you. You should be upset at me. You know, you're the one that didn't get this done. And that kind of leads into the anger part. The rationalization is where we sort of try to rationalize it away. Like, you know, Joe doesn't really understand how to run a business like I do at my level. And, but it's the acceptance you got to get to and realize the validity of what you're hearing. And I do remember at that time it didn't take me long to get to it because I was sort of maybe at the point in my career where I needed to hear that and was ready to hear it. I probably received some earlier feedback that was ignored up to that point. And sometimes that's what it takes with feedback. You have to be in the right place. Maybe you're feeling enough pain at that moment. But it really gets through to you and you realize you do need to change that there is something about your own approach that is not working. And it did take a little emotional intelligence on both of our parts. I think to get to the breakthrough,

Troy Blaser (05:48):

When I'm not hosting a podcast, which is most of my day here at Learning Bridge, I actually do focus on the technology side. So I do development and database work. And I have been in Joe's shoes before where this week, this is the feature that we're going to be working on, and next week I just heard from a customer. And so we're all switching our attention to this new feature. And it's like, well, hold on a second. Can we make some priorities? Right. Did you forget about the one we talked about two weeks ago? Because today's one is more important. And so I've been that developer trying to keep up. And I've also been on the, the management side trying to have that bigger picture and trying to say, "okay, from my vantage point, what are the priorities? What are the most important things to be working on?" So it can be a real challenge for sure.

Sean Murray (06:34):

Absolutely.

Troy Blaser (06:35):

Well, let's talk for just a minute about your book. If Gold is Our Destiny, how a team of Mavericks Came Together for Olympic Glory is the subtitle. This one was fascinating to me. I mentioned kind of before we started recording, I'm, I would say a volleyball enthusiast. I've played volleyball for many years. Had the opportunity to play ball with a couple of the periphery characters in the book, not necessarily those amazing athletes that were on that 1984 team. So for me, the volleyball was interesting, but I also enjoyed the leadership and team lessons that you pulled out of that story. And were able to apply across a broader way of working that all of us will face in our careers, in our jobs, things like that. One of the, the interesting episodes that you related in the book was this experience that the team took as part of Outward Bound spending three weeks in the mountains of Southern Utah. And you talk about the obstacles that they had to overcome as part of that experience and how that helped them work together as a team. So it was an amazing story. Are there some lessons that we can take from reading about that Outward Bound experience, ways that leaders can help develop a cohesive and resilient team in our own environments?

Sean Murray (07:53):

I think absolutely there are, you know, this team was struggling when the coach, coach Doug Beal decided to make this momentous decision really to take the team on an outward bound three week through the mountains of southern Utah in the middle of winter course.

Troy Blaser (08:11):

This was not the typical way that a volleyball team gets ready for the Olympics.

Sean Murray (08:16):

Yes. And that was pointed out by the players many times, back to the coaches, that this is the, the early 1980s, this is leading up to the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. So this was 1982 when the idea was being thrown around. It was 1983, January of 83 when they went, when they finally decided to go on the Outward Bound, which is about 18 months before the Olympics. So yeah, it's not the typical. And so there was a initial resistance by the players. To your point, the question that was surfaced was, how is this going to help us become better volleyball players? Don't we get better at volleyball by getting in the gym and working on the skills we need to work on, get better at passing or whatever the skill is or setting? Isn't that what we need to be doing? And that was the question that was thrown back at the coaches.

Sean Murray (09:05):

And, and to the coach's credit, they were thinking a little further. They, they really thought that there was a culture issue, that what the team needed to do was work on being a team. And that requires building trust. And the trust wasn't always there with this team. Something was missing. And they knew because they had such incredible talent. This was a amazing generation of American volleyball players, a lot of them playing on the beach. They got to this point in their career. They were focused on the indoor game because that's the only Olympic volleyball sport there was at the time. And you know, you might remember, some of your listeners might remember Karch Karily, who was a big name in the eighties and probably, you know, the Michael Jordan of volleyball. You probably, and some other big names from that team. But they had a lot of talent, but they weren't winning.

Sean Murray (09:56):

They had just come in 13th, I think, in the World championships a few months before they went on this trip. And, and they really shouldn't have been 13th. They should have been in the top four or five teams at that point with their talent, but they weren't playing well together. And that's one of the lessons I pulled from just writing about this team, is something that the coach told me about this period in figuring out who was going to be on the team. He said, it's not the best players, it's the best players who can play together as a team. And his role as a coach was to create the culture and the environment and of course the offensive systems and, and that sort of thing. But, so that was the nature of making this decision to go on Outward Bound. Of course, you had to get the players to sort of buy in.

Sean Murray (10:38):

And the way they did that was basically to say, look, if you don't go on this Outward Bound, I can't guarantee you're going to be on the team. And it was that ticket, that golden ticket of getting to the Olympics that they wanted. And so a lot of them said, "okay, I'm going to do what it takes." So that was the context. But when they get out into the Outward Bound, I think learning about each other, trust, uh, even some feedback to each other, there were a lot of things that happened out there, relying on each other to survive and getting out of your regular comfort zone and your regular routine and getting into a different environment. Now, I'll give a couple examples. You're based in Utah, so you know, there's a lot of snow down there in the Abajo Mountains in Monticello. And this was a particularly snowy year, so they snowshoe and so they were breaking trail, so someone on the team had to be out front.

Sean Murray (11:28):

If you've ever snows shooted, then, you know it's a lot harder to be that person out front. They could break trail for a while and they had 50 pound packs on. I mean, they're packing everything in. So this was not a easy endeavor. And the person out front is at a high elevation. You know, they're used to living at sea level in Los Angeles In San Diego. So they're at a high level, and they would take turns breaking trails. So that part of it, just to get from point A to point B, you had to work together. And when they got to wherever they were getting to that evening, it was after maybe 10 or 12 miles of hiking. Sometimes someone had to set up the tent, you know, someone had to get ready for dinner, someone had to gather some firewood for a fire, and everyone had their role.

Sean Murray (12:12):

And together they survived. And at the end of the day, they would sit around the fire and talk, and then they would get up and do it all again the next day. And they started to see each other in ways that were a little different than on the volleyball court, because on the volleyball court there's a, there's sort of a hierarchy in any sport, right? Where there's the starters and there's the people that are kind of at the top of the pecking order. And then you go all down to the people that come off the bench and it got all jumbled because maybe the person who comes in off the bench and has a very specific role might be the most important person because they know how to navigate or they know how to cook, or they know how to set the tent up. And so they, they saw each other in different ways.

Sean Murray (12:49):

And when they came out of this experience, I believe there was a lot more trust and stronger bonds and relationships between the players. And that led to a whole level of innovation and creativity about how to play the game of volleyball. They developed something called the American system, which is still used today. And if you talk to coaches from other international programs, they will still point to this 1984 team as a real turning point in the sport of how they approached volleyball. And I don't think the creativity, the flourishing, and of course going on to spoiler alert, they win the gold medal. You know, I don't think it would've happened without that sort of interaction.

Troy Blaser (13:33):

You mentioned in the book too, it provided a common experience for everybody. Some team members were, you know, from Ohio, from the Midwest, some were from southern California. There was a little bit of a culture clash there and getting everybody off together in a new experience that was common to everybody on the team, kind of gave them a new basis for relating to each other too.

Sean Murray (13:58):

Yes. Yeah. That common shared experience, in fact, when the coaches dreamed up this idea, what they originally wanted to do, and my father was involved in that too because my father was the team psychologist that was working with Doug Beal. And so they, they said what we need is a shared significant life experience, which I think is getting to this common shared experience you're talking about. And doing something together maybe outside of the norm that allows you to again, build trust form relationships. It was really important for this team to do that. And, and maybe to circle around to your original question, okay, well what does that mean to us? Building teams and working in our corporations? Well, we don't all have the luxury to go off for three weeks and whatnot, but this is where you often see the offsite, you know, get out of the office environment.

Sean Murray (14:55):

It's so important. If you're going to have maybe talk about strategy or do some team building, do it somewhere outside of the regular confines if you can, you know, go out, do some bowling or go on a a hike, go to Topgolf, do some kind of activity and just have some fun. And that sort of activity can build relationships and get people to see each other in different ways that they don't see each other in the office. Get to know each other in a way that's outside of the typical corporate peer relationship where you share an obstacle you overcame in your life or something other people might not know about you. Or some significance as a manager, you can ask your team, let's just go around and share. And you share first as the manager or the leader. And then you invite your team to talk and you'd be amazed at what you're going to hear and the connections that people might forge that they otherwise might not if they didn't have the opportunity to have that kind of conversation.

Troy Blaser (15:57):

Yeah. It sounds like after Outward Bound, as they approached the Olympics that were coming, you know, a year and a half later that athletes developed more trust in the coaches. And you mentioned in the book, they learned to listen to their own crazy ideas. They weren't afraid to look foolish. There were times when the coaches would come up with some particular drills that were out of the box. And those athletes, because of that trust they had developed, they said, okay, we'll try it and see what happens. So there was kind of a psychological safety happening there. Are there ways that a leader in an organization can create that same kind of psychological safety for team members to be able to take risks?

Sean Murray (16:40):

I like the term psychological safety. It is what these coaches created at that time through the Outward Bound experience and just how they approached practices and working with the players early on. The coach Doug Beal said one of the keys to success was that we weren't afraid to look foolish. And that was a contagious thing that the players took on too. And I think that's important for any kind of creativity or innovation that you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And for that you have to have trust in yourself, trust in each other, and your own crazy ideas and willingness to learn. You know, I guess it's a form of feedback. You go out there and, and maybe you fail, but you learn and you move forward. And that attitude was so important for the team to get to where they needed to go to be the best in the world at what they do.

Sean Murray (17:33):

And as I relate that back to working with teams and businesses today as a leader or a manager, if you can create that atmosphere, you're going to get better ideas. You're going to get people bought in to new ideas and to change. And some tips for doing that are building a place where there's a high level of trust. It starts with having a approach of vulnerability as a leader, you know, if you come in and you lead from a sort of command and control and an authority, you're not going to get the kind of creativity innovation you're looking for. But if you approach it as, okay, I'm looking for all of your ideas. I don't have all the answers, I am here to facilitate the best decision. So I want to hear from all of you, what do we want to do with this obstacle? Do we want to do this merger or not?

Sean Murray (18:27):

Or how do we want to approach this strategic partnership? Let's get the best ideas out there and if it's crazy, okay, let's talk about it. You know, sometimes the best ideas that get thrown out in these kind of sessions are ideas that aren't fully formed yet, and so therefore they're a little impractical and kind of crazy. But as a manager, you can shoot them down pretty quick if you want to because they are maybe not fully formed. But if you have the psychological safety, that's an opportunity to learn. "Okay, tell me more about that idea. What do we like about it?" Questions like that, that get to building the cohesion and the togetherness that you need as a team.

Troy Blaser (19:08):

You talked about leading with vulnerability and being open to those kinds of suggestions. And now thinking back to the story of the team, I was thinking about the coaches thinking about Doug Beal and the assistant coaches as well as I read the book, and you can tell me if you have other insights too, but it seems like there was that vulnerability between the head coach, Doug Beal and his assistants in terms of him listening to their ideas. Do you feel like there was that vulnerability between the coaches and the players? Or did that have to develop over a much longer period for the team?

Sean Murray (19:47):

That's a really good question. And there were two main coaches, Doug Beal and, and there was assistant Bill Neville, and I think Bill Neville was better at creating the vulnerability and was more of a player's coach and was there to develop really strong relationships with the players. He's the kind of guy that does that naturally. People gravitate to him and he's just the kind of coach that really loves his players. Players love him. And we've probably all had coaches like that in our wives. Doug Beal was a little bit more emotionally removed from the players because he had the final decision to make about who was going to be on the team and who wasn't going to be on on the team. And he felt like they didn't want his emotions to cloud this judgment on that decision. And so he did, I think have a little more space between him.

Sean Murray (20:43):

Now it's like he's one of the guys, I was just at a reunion of this team. His relationship now with the players is much different as you've probably imagine, you know, 40 some years later. But he was a little bit emotionally removed, but the coaches went on the Outward Bound too. I don't know if I mentioned that. And I think that's an important part of what was going on here, is that they were willing to do all the things that they were asking the players to do, and they were willing to put themselves out there in other ways. Maybe like for example, feedback. One of the ways that the team gave feedback to one another was the players would write down on four by six cards what they liked and what they didn't like about what the coaches were doing. And the coaches would do the same with the players.

Sean Murray (21:30):

And then that would go to, my father was as the team psychologist. We were filtering through these cards and then we'd get everyone together and say, okay, let's talk about this one. So feedback was going both ways, which was not typical for coaches back in that day. It was sort of like, I'm the coach, I know how to coach volleyball, you listen to me. But it wasn't working with these players. They were more mature, they were independent thinkers. They had their own ideas, they were vulnerable, they were open to feedback, they were criticized by the players in certain ways and what they were doing. And they made adjustments based on the feedback. And I think that's, to their credit, and I'm sure contributed to their success.

Troy Blaser (22:11):

Maybe that's part of what makes a great coach or a great leader, is finding the right balance, knowing when to hear that feedback that's coming from the players or the team members. And then knowing the right decision to make based on that feedback. Because obviously the coaches got a lot of feedback of, "we don't want to go on Outward Bound. We don't think that's a good idea." Right. They listened to that, but they still did the activity. But like you say, there were other times when they got feedback from the team and said, "yeah, this time we need to do what these athletes are wanting."

Sean Murray (22:42):

Yeah. That's a great insight. That is the, that's the art of leadership. Knowing when to listen, when to push back a little bit. There are other times when the players said that the coaches pushed them harder than they wanted to be pushed. I'm sure there was some pushback on, do we really need to do this drill 12 times? Do we really need to do all this weight training or physical, whatever it was. And Doug Beal pushed those players harder than they wanted to be pushed and it wasn't comfortable, but they're very grateful now. That he did that because they have that gold medal that changed their life.

Troy Blaser (23:15):

Absolutely. So I was curious, as I was getting ready for our conversation today, I know that your father was involved with the team as the team psychologist and that your father wasn't necessarily a volleyball expert. How much did you know about the game of volleyball before you started writing the book?

Sean Murray (23:34):

Not very much. Not as much as I really needed to know to write at the high level. But luckily I had the help of people around the team. Including Doug Beel and Bill Neville to coach me on what was important in the game. And I've learned a lot about the game over time and it's, uh, so there was a lot of learning I had to do as well. And of course it always surprised me that my dad was involved in a volleyball, uh, because he wasn't a volleyball player. You know, he, he definitely stood out if you put him in, if you lined up all the volleyball players and you, you know, my dad was not that tall and, a pretty good athlete in his younger days, but by this time he really wasn't. And so I had to learn a lot. And volleyball is very much a team sport. That's something that I took away is just how critical it is to be a team in volleyball because one person can't go one-on-one.

Troy Blaser (24:31):

Right. Yeah.

Sean Murray (24:32):

It's not like the NBA where you can kind of pass to your best player and that player can

Troy Blaser (24:37):

Clear out everybody else out.

Sean Murray (24:38):

Yeah clear out, let these to do the pick and roll and, and it may maybe the most team-based sport in the world. I'm sure there's some arguments there, but I would say the way the other team can dictate where they put the ball to start any sort of rally or anything like that, if you have a weak link on your team, you know, it's so you have to work together. That was one thing that the players learned. Again, this came out of a feedback session where the players realized that how they react to a mistake was so important to the psyche and to the, the momentum and to the, on the court culture they're trying to create. Because there were times when someone made a mistake, they would get the sort of stare down, like, what are you doing? How could you let that happen? They had to overcome that and realize, we can't do that anymore. That if someone makes a mistake, we come together, we got this, don't worry, we'll get the next one. Put that out of your mind. We're a team, let's get right back at it. And so they learned how to give each other feedback on the court in real time in a way that preserved their culture on the court and hopefully preserved their confidence in one another so that they could win. Volleyball is a game of momentum swing.

Troy Blaser (25:52):

Yeah, very much so. So Sean, sometimes in the work that I do, I will encounter an organization with a culture that is resistant to feedback, which is understandable. It can be anxiety inducing to think I'm going to open myself up to all of this feedback and who knows what's going to happen. Are there strategies that you can share with us for leaders to help them effectively handle this kind of feedback resistance in their teams?

Sean Murray (26:19):

Well, that's a good question. I think there's probably various contexts, but one thing that comes to mind is making the case for change, you know, I think of the John Kotter and his work around change and he talks about the burning platform. And you know, sometimes what people need to hear when they have resistance to change is that what's awaiting for you if you don't accept the feedback, it's potentially irrelevance for the way that the world is, is moving. Another tack I might take as a leader is building the case for, it's the organization that learns and is agile and can accept feedback and get better. That is going to be the most powerful organization. And you want to try to build a culture that's accepting of that. It doesn't mean that everything you hear from feedback is completely valid. You got to put it through your own filter as far as validity and how to use that feedback. But for the most part, it's the organization that is willing to evolve, to innovate open to creativity to change that's going to be successful in this world that's changing so fast, where if you don't change, then in most industries there's going to be some sort of irrelevance coming pretty quickly.

Troy Blaser (27:37):

You talked earlier about when the volleyball team went on the Outward Bound experience, the coaches participated in that experience. I think there's value in that example being set. So if you're in an organization that is maybe resistant to change, there's value in setting that example as the team leader, as the manager of receiving that feedback and doing it in a way that's visible to say, here's the feedback that I've received. Here are the changes that I'm trying to make. That can, I think, go a long way towards breaking that resistance down if, if folks sense that there's no hypocrisy going on.

Sean Murray (28:13):

I think that's a great point. I mean, if you can show and demonstrate that, look, I am open to feedback, I'm listening, I'm trying to get better. I know the feedback is helping me get better. I don't always want to hear it, I don't always believe it right away, but I, I am trying to do that and I'm asking you to do the same. I'm asking us as a culture and as a team to use feedback as a way to validate where we're going and to get better. I think that's a great example. And, and certainly I think the coaches did do that and demonstrated, and I don't think it would've been successful if the coaches would've sent them off on the Outward Bound and said, well, we're going to be, you know, in Hawaii during that time, taking a little r and r, I don't think it would've worked.

Sean Murray (28:52):

And they, to their credit, they were out there and it was not easy. I should probably mention I talked about that earlier, less, and it's not the best players, it's the best players who can play together as a team. And there was a very talented player who didn't want to go on the Outward Bound and ended up opting out of the Outward Bound and went against what the coaches were asking the players to do. And eventually that player didn't make it on the team. And so they did look a little foolish in the short run, but it looked like a genius move in the long run when they won the gold medal and they were a stronger team because they became a team. There's that saying that the power of the wolf is the pack. They became this team that was much better because everyone was bought in and everyone was fully committed,

Troy Blaser (29:41):

Not only because of Outward Bound, but even the whole culture going back into the sixties and seventies. The men's national team athletes would come together a few months before a tournament and have some practices and then go to the tournament and ultimately not do very well. And so part of what Doug Beal did was elevate the team in importance and say, if you're going to be on the team, you've got to be committed to it. We're going to practice four to six hours a day every day. And it's a year round commitment. It's not just come together six months before some tournament.

Sean Murray (30:17):

Yeah. And you got to put the success of the team above yourself. And, and maybe that was another lesson that came out of Outward Bound and, and any great team eventually to be the best at what you do and the best in the world, you have to have a group of people that are committed to the success of the team. And sometimes that requires a little sacrifice and sometimes that means that your ego doesn't get fulfilled in the way personally you might want it to because you got to think about the success of the team. And that might mean spending a little more time on the bench and having someone else out there or giving credit to someone else and I think all great teams get there eventually, the world's litter with teams that don't get there because the egos get in the way.

Troy Blaser (31:01):

Yeah. I wonder, Sean, in the work that you do with real-time performance, are there some common misconceptions about leadership that you encounter?

Sean Murray (31:09):

You know, one of the misconceptions that I see a lot, and I think I also kind of fell prey to this early in my career, is that leaders need to be liked by everyone. I think I overly emphasized trying to win people over in every situation and have everyone be, you know, happy and satisfied with every outcome. Because I'm sort of a pleaser. I want people to feel good about where we're going and feel good about my leadership, what's happening. And really in leadership, there's going to be people and individuals in times when there's disagreement about uh, direction or you might have to have a really difficult feedback conversation. And I think learning to overcome that and to put yourself above maybe the emotional challenges of, "okay, I've got to go have a difficult conversation with this person." And that sort of goes against the, "Hey, this is all great and we're going to have, you know, work together as a team to win a gold medal."

Sean Murray (32:16):

And that's the kind of stuff that I get enthused by. But you don't get that unless you also are able to have those difficult conversations and realize not everyone's going to like me all the time. Not everyone's going to agree with everything that I do. And you have to get comfortable with that as a leader. And some people maybe are born naturally that way. I wasn't. So I can relate to people that have a bit of a challenge with that. And I think we need more of that in our society, in our cultures, in our organizations, just leaders that are willing to help people face reality and help them improve. You know, often it's those difficult conversations that help people figure out maybe this isn't the right place for them to work or this is the right place, but they've got to really get committed. And as leaders, you got to, you got to step up and have those conversations. Not always fun, but they're so important to being a high functioning leader and a team.

Troy Blaser (33:13):

Yeah. There's a difference between a leader and a friend and there's some overlap there, but not entirely. And ultimately in the long term, we want leaders who are willing to make those difficult decisions, even when we don't always agree. The athletes on the volleyball team wanted a coach who would push them to do workouts that they didn't want to do because of the long-term goal.

Sean Murray (33:39):

Yes, I totally agree with that, Troy, that we crave that sort of leader, even though in the short term or at times we go, "man, that that leader's tough." Like my very first boss was a very challenging, hard nosed bond. I love the guy to death, but he wasn't afraid to tell me where, where I was going wrong, but I was doing something wrong or that he thought I needed to do, uh, work harder or be more committed. And when I look back at my career, I think how much I grew under that leadership. It's amazing. But it wasn't always easy at the time. And I think I complained about him a few times, but you know, when I look back on, he's still a good friend of mine and a mentor to me and and that's the kind of leader that really pushes you to grow and excel.

Troy Blaser (34:27):

Yeah. Well, so you wrote the book couple of years ago and I know there was a lot of time and effort spent on the research and the writing of the book and getting it published. If gold is our destiny, it's a fantastic story. Are there some projects, is there something you're working on right now that you're especially passionate about that you can share with us?

Sean Murray (34:47):

Well, I have some ideas and some projects early on for a follow on book. I haven't really talked about that publicly yet, but what I'm really excited about as a follow on with this book, I"f Gold is our Destiny", is that there's a group in Hollywood that's picked it up that they would like to make a documentary about the story. And so we're in the early stages right now, but we did do some interviews and I was recently in Long Beach when the team got together for a reunion and we got in front of a camera and there were a number of interviews. And so this story is hopefully going to be told in another format, in a documentary format, which I think could appeal to maybe a wider audience. Not everybody wants to read a book and a lot of people love the documentary format. There's a lot of great sports documentaries. There seems to be a lot of interest. I think we learn so much from stories from athletics. I'm excited that this might actually get out there. Maybe, you know, on one of those streaming services down the road, you might see this story. It may not have the title "If Gold is Our Destiny", so be open to others. But they've hired me to help with the research and be involved in the project. I'm really excited about it's,

Troy Blaser (36:06):

That's exciting. I'll definitely watch for that. We definitely need more footage of those stylish 1980s short shorts, uh, that the all the volleyball teams wore, right?

Sean Murray (36:18):

That's right. Yeah, they definitely had it's like the Boston Celtics Lake series in eighties in basketball. The same thing was going on in volleyball. Yeah. They did recently reissue the 84 men's volleyball, um, jersey that they wore Uhhuh to commemorate the team that it was 40 years ago this summer that they won their gold medal. And the Olympics are coming back to Los Angeles in 2028. And so there's going to be, I believe, more interest in this team because nine of the 12 players were from the Southern California, Los Angeles area. They were sort of the hometown boys, the hometown team in 84. And they went against the odds to win this gold medal in 84 and it was a big deal for the city. And now the Olympics are coming back to la And so I hope there's a little resurgence in the team. And I think this company that wants to do the documentary, I think they're hoping for a little resurgence too.

Troy Blaser (37:11):

Well, good luck to you on that project. That sounds exciting. Sean, if people want to know more, if they want to connect with you to continue the kinds of conversations that we've been having, what should they do? How should they reach out to you?

Sean Murray (37:24):

Well, my website is and yeah, I'm also on LinkedIn. If you look up Sean P. Murray and RealTime Performance, or "If Golden Are Destiny", you'll find me, and I'm happy to connect with people. Would love to have further conversations if others want to learn more about the book or lessons from the book or what I do to help organizations.

Troy Blaser (37:47):

Fantastic. Sean, thanks so much for being with us today. I appreciate it. Thanks,

Sean Murray (37:51):

Troy. It was a great conversation. Have a great day.