Troy Blaser (00:04):
Hello. Welcome to today's episode of Simply Feedback, the podcast brought to you by LearningBridge. I'm your host, Troy Blaser. Our guest today is Jess Cisco, who is the managing partner at ActiveLeading. Just to give you a little bit of background about Jess, Jess is someone who cares about people and results. Two individuals who were influential early in his life had several conflicts. And through learning to help them resolve their differences, Jess realized he had a natural inclination to help others build and maintain strong relationships. Jess continues to help others reach their potential in a few roles. As I mentioned, he's the founder and managing partner at ActiveLeading. He is the director of team coaching for Cornell University's executive MBA programs, as well as a visiting lecturer in Cornell's Nolan School of Hotel Administration and Cornell's ILR school. Jess Cisco, welcome to Simply Feedback it's so great to have you join us today.
Jess Cisco (01:02):
Thank you, Troy. I'm really pleased to be here. And also, I want to express a little bit of thanks to the people out there listening as well. Hopefully useful investment of your time. But thanks for having me.
Troy Blaser (01:12):
I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Maybe just to kick things off a little bit, we like to ask our guests, you know, the podcast is Simply Feedback, and I wonder if you could maybe tell us about a time in your life when you've received some feedback. Maybe it was feedback that had an impact on your life, on your career, but is some, is a time that sticks in your memory when you've received feedback. Could you share something with us?
Jess Cisco (01:36):
That particular question and the topic of feedback I think is so important. Feedback has been a huge part of my life, and so I don't know if I can limit it to just one
Troy Blaser (01:45):
Sure. The stories are always interesting, so
Jess Cisco (01:48):
I think the first one that really sticks in my mind when I was, early in my career, a teenager, I started working at a grocery store on the West Coast, Safeway. And at Safeway, when I went to college, I became a supervisor. And so I was going to school full-time and working a good amount of time, part-time. And I had, I remember an assistant manager who worked at Safeway at the time, his name's Arnie. I still keep in touch with him. This was over 20 years ago. And I remember I didn't realize that I had a pattern of behavior in response to feedback, but Arnie made it clear. So one day we were, I think, near the meat counter in the back of the store, and at the end of each aisle in a grocery store, you probably realized there are end caps where there's product displayed and maybe something on sale.
Jess Cisco (02:42):
And so I remember Arnie was walking with me and we were debriefing the previous night, and he let me know that a few of the end caps didn't look as good as he was hoping when he came in that morning. And so he and I were talking and I think I started making excuses. I was the supervisor. I didn't necessarily maybe build the end cap, but I was ultimately responsible for it. And whatever I said, I have no idea, but I remember what Arnie told me. He said, Jess, what I want you to do when I share feedback is I just want you to say thank you. I understand it won't happen again. And I said, Oh, I mean, I don't know that I responded as well in the moment. But he is basically saying, and he was noticing that when I, when I've given you feedback in the past, you have a way of deflecting it or not wanting to accept it.
Jess Cisco (03:30):
And I don't think until he'd given me that feedback that I realized I had that tendency. And then when he gave it to me, I realized, Oh, I do. I have reasons why it didn't happen. It wasn't my fault. It was this, it was that. And I think that was a real turning point for me. I realized that he cared about me. He wanted me to be, to learn to be better. And he wasn't criticizing me. He was trying to bring to my attention something that needed to be different, and then I could adjust. And so that memory really sticks in my mind. I'm thankful for Arnie giving me the feedback and sticking with me and helping me to grow as a supervisor back then. And so that was really influential. And if we have time for maybe one or two more, I have a couple others that stick out in my mind as well.
Troy Blaser (04:15):
Yeah. Hit us with another one.
Jess Cisco (04:17):
So I think the next one would be a professor that I had who, I guess I had the opportunity to go to two different colleges when I was an undergrad. So I started out at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, a state school with thousands of students. And the class sizes were really large, and so I never really got to know my professors, but I was fortunate to move to Ithaca, New York where I live now. And when I moved to Ithaca and I began working for Cornell University, I started learning about the Nolan School of Hotel Administration. And I realized rather than study biology, which is what I used to be doing, I could have this amazing new world of hospitality, of creating amazing experiences for people and have a business education. So I ended up enrolling at the hotel school, and one of the first classes I took was a business communication course, management communication.
Jess Cisco (05:15):
And the professor, Craig Snow, who is still a mentor of mine, he's a friend now, but back then he was a faculty member only. He was my teacher. And it was a smaller class than I was used to, 20 students rather than perhaps hundreds at Washington State University. And Professor Snow the Snowman, as I get to call him now that I've had him as a professor, he gave more feedback than any professor I have ever seen. He invested in his students. So weekly he would teach the class two times a week, 75 minutes. Most students get that amount of exposure with their professor. But then, he didn't have anyone other than himself read and comment on papers. So he would read every student paper and meticulously, by hand, he would write in the margin and ask questions, provide feedback on where to get more resources to learn about a particular topic, like how to structure your message or how to maybe more accurately phrase an idea.
Jess Cisco (06:17):
So he gave meticulous feedback in writing. But then he did even more than that. He would meet every week. He set aside 30 to 40 hours of one-on-one tutorial time.
Troy Blaser (06:31):
Jess Cisco (06:31):
And many of us students, because of necessity, our grades weren't quite as high as we wanted. He had incredibly high standards. He would meet one-on-one for 30 minutes as many times a week as you signed up to meet with him. And he would go through and give additional verbal feedback on what I was doing well in my papers and what I wasn't doing so well. And through that, I became a much better communicator, I think. And he just continued to invest in me. I'd never had anybody that was willing to give constructive feedback and praise, but mostly constructive, lots of room for improvement.
Jess Cisco (07:09):
And it really shaped, I guess how valuable feedback was to me. It shaped what it means to dedicate yourself and truly care enough about people to tell them what they're doing well and what they could do to do better. And so I'd never met a professor like Professor Snow, who invested so much time. I mean, teaching each class is one thing, but 30 to 40 hours of office hours a week is quite the investment. And that's what it took to give quality feedback to as many students as he had. So that was a huge, huge turning point for me with feedback. And if we've got time, I have one more person I'd like to mention.
Troy Blaser (07:49):
You bet. Let's do it.
Jess Cisco (07:51):
So, after I went to school, I was, you probably notice a non-traditional student, so little older. I was, I transferred from Washington State, I was working. And then I finally finished school. And when I finished school, I started working in human resources in a training and development function. It's actually where I first learned of LearningBridge. And so without that, I may not be sitting here with you today.
Troy Blaser (08:17):
That's true. Yeah.
Jess Cisco (08:19):
In that role, I had the fortune to meet Kathy Burkgren
, who, at the time she was my supervisor. Now she's an associate vice president, and she has an even bigger team. But she was a huge influence. She was the first manager I'd ever worked for that really had not just an individual culture of feedback where she would meet and give feedback with students or with employees like I had with Professor Snow. She kind of created a whole culture of feedback.
Jess Cisco (08:49):
She had, I think 11 direct reports including me. And in our team meetings, we would talk about and give each other feedback. She would encourage feedback with coworkers. And so I'd never seen what it looked like to be in a culture where we actually tell each other what's happening, what's going on. And so Kathy, I think, as far as professionally, she showed me the power of feedback. She did it in our one-on-one meetings together. She inspired it in our team meetings together and through our performance evaluations and things like that. So, I guess I have a lot of stories of people who have kind of used feedback and over time it became a real turning point in my life, helping me to grow.
Troy Blaser (09:35):
Yeah, that's interesting. With, Kathy, you can see that there needs to, sometimes there needs to be a real effort made around creating that culture, because I think it's natural for us in our, especially in our professional interactions, to remain polite and, oh, I wouldn't say that because it might cause hurt feelings or something like that, but it is possible, like Kathy did, to create that culture where it is safe to give feedback to one another. And there's feedback going in all kinds of directions, you know, not just from the top down, but the ability to share with peers and to help everyone be more aware, but know that it's a safe place to give and receive that feedback.
Jess Cisco (10:16):
Definitely. A story that occurs to me, one of my coworkers, when I worked for Kathy, her name was, or her name is, she's still with us, Jennifer. Jennifer and I, we were in a staff meeting and Jennifer was presenting and telling our whole team about something she was really excited to potentially introduce to our organization. And I remember during that meeting she was presenting, she was talking about the idea, and I thought, Wow, this is a great idea. She was talking about, I think a conflict model that we might use. And I got excited with her and contributed a little bit in the meeting. And so I remember thinking, oh, that was a great meeting. And I went back to my office and a few minutes later, Jen came and tapped on the door and she said, Jess, can we talk for a few minutes?
Jess Cisco (11:01):
And I don't remember exactly what I said, but it, I think it was something yeah, sure. That was a great meeting. I'm excited to talk to you. And she said, yeah, actually, I wanted to talk to you about the meeting. And she said, basically when I was sharing that model, you, it seemed like you kind of took over the conversation, and in a way it kind of felt like you hijacked what I was talking about. And she might have given me a little bit more specifics, but I remember thinking, Wow. Thank you for letting me know. I literally had no idea. I had a completely different perception of what happened at the meeting. And Jennifer and I had a really good, my perception is a really close relationship. And I started thinking about, this didn't all happen right in the moment, but over time, I started to think, wow, I had, I really value Jennifer as a coworker.
Jess Cisco (11:52):
If she hadn't given me that feedback. If she had kind of internalized, well, Jess took over the meeting and maybe he's not as great a coworker as I thought, or whatever story she might have come up with, it might have harmed our relationship. And I might have always wondered, why did, why does she seem to be distant from me? Why does it seem like things are not going the way they used to go? And so it just occurred to me, I was like, I'm so thankful that Kathy created a culture where we give each other feedback. Otherwise, I literally probably would've never known if she hadn't been brave enough to come and talk to me. So yeah, feedback is a huge part of my life. I think it's helped me to get where I am today. Without it I wouldn't be the person I am.
Troy Blaser (12:33):
That's fantastic. And, you know, it all goes back in some ways to that manager back at Safeway who gave you feedback about receiving feedback. You know, it was like, hey, I've noticed when I try to tell you stuff you deflect and maybe you shouldn't do that. You know, and that like sets a pattern or resets the pattern for you that you've been able to keep throughout the rest of your career all from that interaction early on.
Jess Cisco (12:58):
Yeah, true. If Arnie hadn't been there for me, I probably would've still had that pattern of rejecting the feedback. No, I didn't, I wasn't trying to take over the meeting from you, Jennifer, I was trying to support you, and I would've just not even heard what she was saying, not even realize what could have potentially happened if I rejected the feedback.
Troy Blaser (13:16):
Yeah, exactly. Well, so can we talk for just a minute about, about your business, ActiveLeading. You coach individuals, teams through that company, ActiveLeading. Can you tell us what is unique in your approach at ActiveLeading? What sets you apart from other coaches that are out there?
Jess Cisco (13:35):
Sure. So I do, obviously as director of team coaching, I do a lot of coaching. But, the business ActiveLeading is, in a way, it's a consulting company. So I do traditional consulting. I do a little bit of coaching.
Troy Blaser (13:47):
Jess Cisco (13:48):
Probably, I guess what's unique about me and the culture of the company, my partner Jennifer Gudaz, is what I try to create, no matter what project I'm working on, whether it's lean process improvement for clients like Lehigh University, or it's TCAT, Tompkins County Area Transit here, the bus system in Tompkins County, whatever the project is, one of the things that's unique is that I value growth and learning. I'm able to create a really safe, psychologically safe place for people to be who they are, to have tough conversations. And I make it easy for them to do that. And I guess, how do I make it easy? A question that's worthwhile. I can give an example. So, as you mentioned, I'm teaching at the Nolan School as a visiting lecturer. And I teach business writing, the class that Professor Snow, who I mentioned earlier, he taught me.
Jess Cisco (14:43):
And so I meet with small groups of students, four students in what I call learning teams. And I was just thinking and reflecting yesterday, I met with a couple groups of students. And one of the things I do in the beginning is I ask them, why do you think I would ask us to invest this hour of time to give each other feedback to look at your different messages? And I start with a question like that for them to think about. And the reason I do it is I want them to realize the intention is to help us learn to grow, to get feedback, to see different perspectives. And I guess what I'm doing with that question is setting the expectation. We're all here to learn. We're here to grow. And then the reason I thought to share it is, I guess, how I create the safe space is I also realize, and I often use myself as the example, I know that it can be tough to get feedback.
Jess Cisco (15:37):
And when we look at each other's messages, we might realize all the things we wish we had done. How, why did I phrase it that way? Why did, why didn't I spend more time? And we're self critical sometimes, which makes it hard to hear what people share with us. And so anyway, in these small learning team meetings, I start off by kind of setting the intention is we want to learn, we want to grow, we want to get feedback. And I recognize that the impact might not always be that it might be a little discomfort, maybe some embarrassment. And so I just try to start off with kind of a level setting, Why are we here? How can we shift our perspective so we can hear the feedback we can learn without shutting down and becoming too self critical? So I think what's unique about our approach, I hope I help anyone I work with reach their potential. I hope I make it easy to have difficult conversations. And I guess that would be, if it's a secret sauce or a superpower that we hope to bring. It's just making it easy to have tough conversations.
Troy Blaser (16:38):
I love that.
Jess Cisco (16:38):
What could be potentially tough conversations.
Troy Blaser (16:40):
Yeah. Yeah. But helping them feel safe enough to have that conversation. And to hear that without reacting defensively or being critical. As you have had these interactions and these chances to coach teams and individuals, students, can you think of a specific experience or a time when you've seen that feedback cause a point of inflection in someone's life? Maybe similar to some of those feedback experiences you had yourself, but have you been able to sort of watch that happen to somebody else, whether for good or for bad?
Jess Cisco (17:15):
Yeah, I think I have seen a couple of examples, and I'll keep the names, I'll change the names for privacy. But I can definitely think of within the last couple of years, a particular team I was working with, it was a team of seven people. And the, this particular experience I'm thinking about, it was in December or so of 2020, so right in the heart of our great vacation.
Troy Blaser (17:43):
Is that what it was? A vacation? I don't know.
Jess Cisco (17:46):
Something like that. Things change. And I remember we were having a conversation, it was actually a feedback conversation. So I was facilitating two rounds of feedback. The first round was, what is something you appreciate about each member of this team? And so, for example, Troy, if you and I were on a team and, maybe one of your colleagues at LearningBridge, Michael was there, we might say, well, what I appreciate about Troy is that he asks really great questions. And he seems to be listening and he follows up with additional questions. So something specific that we appreciate about you. And then Michael might chime in and say, well, what I appreciate about Troy is this. So we did rounds of appreciation for every member of the team. So we did appreciation circle. And then after that question, we shift the question to what, if anything, could Troy or could I,
Jess Cisco (18:36):
What, if anything, could we do differently to be even more effective on this team? And so basically we're asking for constructive feedback. And I remember this person will call him Dan. Dan, like, I think of the seven people we were probably, he was maybe the fifth to hear, but five other people had received their constructive feedback and heard it and said, I mean, sometimes it's hard to hear when people say, I wish you delivered more things on time, or, I wish you communicated a little bit more. I'm simplifying. And anyway, they were like, you know, even though I don't want to hear those things Yeah, I get it. I can hear that. So most team members kind of did some version of, I could see how you might think that. So I was really pleased it was going well.
Jess Cisco (19:23):
And then we got to Dan. And Dan's team members gave him constructive feedback. That was, from what I could tell, I hadn't been in every interaction that they had as a team, but it seemed relatively accurate and free of judgment as much as possible. One of the things I do when I listen to feedback is if somebody says, you didn't do a very good job, or you did that because you didn't care about me. If I hear assumptions or judgements in the feedback, I might call it out and try to reframe it a little bit.
Troy Blaser (19:54):
I like that. Yeah.
Jess Cisco (19:55):
But anyway, this person, Dan received the feedback and at the end of it, he basically said, Well, if I, some version of this, if I knew that you were going to be so critical of me, I would've given completely different feedback when it was my turn. And then the conversation just completely went off track. I worked to help, like, what, what's the challenge for you? What are you requesting from your team to better understand or, I was trying to help process it, but basically it was a turning point for this person. He couldn't and didn't want to hear the feedback. He couldn't see why do they have that perspective? Why might they think that? And he completely rejected it to the point that that team started to become much more dysfunctional afterward, because he couldn't hear it. He didn't have the Arnie apparently in his life that I happened to have.
Troy Blaser (20:53):
Jess Cisco (20:54):
So it was really, really tough for him to hear. And he was, at that time, he was probably in his early forties. So he was a professional. He'd done really big roles and he just could not hear the feedback. He didn't want to hear it. It felt like too much of a personal attack, despite the fact that I know every person, my sense is they had positive intent. They listened to their own feedback, and they had some real important information to share, but he couldn't hear it.
Troy Blaser (21:21):
That's definitely a challenge. It's a challenge for Dan not being able to hear that feedback, but then a challenge for the rest of the team as well. Like you said, things can start to become more dysfunctional once everyone sort of realizes, well, it kind of doesn't matter what we think about Dan, the fictional Dan cause he's not going to hear it anyway. What, is there advice that you would give to folks? I mean, we've sort of come back to this theme of receiving feedback, are there some ideas that you would share with our listeners about ways to be in a position to hear that feedback?
Jess Cisco (21:57):
So to receive feedback, feedback can be difficult to receive no matter who we are, depending on what's going on for us at the particular time. Like, I'm just, for example, just coming off of a cold over the weekend, the COVID cold, I tested positive on Friday.
Troy Blaser (22:14):
Jess Cisco (22:15):
Depending I guess on how much sleep we got and how much stress is going on in our life, whether we've had a good meal or not. Do we need our Snickers bar, are we hangry? So depending on what's happening for us, feedback could probably be easier or more difficult. Depending on the particular time and place. It probably also depends on who we are. What life have we lived? How do we perceive feedback in general? Like, did we have an Arnie who helped us hear feedback differently? Did we have somebody earlier in our life that maybe made feedback even harder to hear? And again, maybe we never changed our perception of what it is, but I think there are a lot of things that make it tough or that can be difficult. But I guess with that perspective, what could we do to make it easier?
Jess Cisco (23:03):
One thing that Kathy Burkgren probably first put this idea in my mind, and it aligns with the Arnie feedback. Feedback is really, it's just information. And so we're the ones that put the label: it's positive feedback or negative feedback. But really, I think feedback, if we take those labels off, it's just, it's information. And sometimes that information tells us as much about us and what we are doing as it does about the person sharing it with us, what they value in the world, what they, how they see us, what they want from us. And so, feedback, I like to think of it as, it's just information. And so I think one thing that we can do as we're taking in feedback is maybe shift our perception of what it is. It's information. Ideally, hopefully it's information that comes from somebody who cares about us.
Jess Cisco (23:57):
And so maybe the second thing we can do is figure out what is my relationship to this person? Do I trust them? Do I care about them? Do they care about me? So depending on who it is and what the relationship is, like, you might assign different weight to it, if you can hear it. And then as you hear the feedback, try to notice what's actually happening. I try to notice what's happening in my body, is my, are my palms a little sweaty? Is my heart beating? Kind of check in. How am I doing? Do I need to take a deep breath?
Troy Blaser (24:30):
Jess Cisco (24:31):
Like, when we breathe out, particularly, it really does, it kicks in our parasympathetic nervous system, and it reduces our anxiety and stress. We breathe it away if we can. But if you can try to notice what's happening and think about are there any strategies that I have that help me to remain present and not go into fight, flight, or freeze mode? So those are a few things that I think are helpful. And then maybe one more after you hear the feedback, if you don't understand it, or like, often feedback is too general. I wish you would communicate more clearly. What do you mean? When did I communicate not particularly clearly? What did I say? What was I wearing that day? I'm teasing. It's often helpful to have feedback that, if we had a magic wand, it'd be great if people gave us a little bit of context, focused on behaviors, things that I did or things that I said.
Jess Cisco (25:29):
And then focus on the impact, whatever labels you want. But what was the impact to my relationship with you? What was the impact to the project? What's the impact to the culture of our team? Like, some sort of impact. But most people don't give feedback as clearly as they could. And so again, we're thinking from the role of listener. So if you're listening and you're kind of, you're trying to take it in as information, you're noticing what's happening to your body. If you get feedback that's not clear that it's missing some of those ingredients, my hope would be that you're curious enough that you ask those questions, so, oh, interesting. I could communicate differently. Well, could you, can you think of a time when I communicated well? What did I do? What did I say? Or can you think of a time, is there a specific time recently when I haven't done it well?
Troy Blaser (26:21):
When it was unclear. Yeah.
Jess Cisco (26:23):
And what, oh, I think I remember that. What did I, do you remember what I said? Or what was going on? And then when you hear it maybe trying to process, well, what was that like for you when I said that? Trying to understand what was my impact? Even though probably you had positive intentions, what was the impact? So I guess there are probably many things we could think about, but those three, kind of thinking of it as information, noticing what's happening for you, and then really trying to get curious could potentially be helpful.
Troy Blaser (26:51):
I love it. Well, and I would even come back, one of the very first things you answered with was being aware of your daily circumstances. Did I get enough sleep last night? Did I, you know, am I just getting over being sick, or am I hungry right now? You know, I think that's easy for us to overlook, and especially because if we're the one receiving feedback, we're the one who's hungry or didn't get enough sleep or whatever. And it's hard to step aside from that and sort of observe that about ourselves. You know, like, gee, this would be a lot easier if I came back after lunch to digest this piece of feedback. You know? Or whatever it might be. So I think that's also an important thing to be aware of. And also if you switch it and think about someone giving feedback to keep that in mind as well. You know, the person that I'm speaking to that I'm trying to give feedback to is a whole person with a whole story. You know, you and I had this conversation and you just, just now mentioned, you're getting over being sick. Right? Well, I didn't know that about you before we started the conversation. And we're not in a feedback situation, but, you know, that would be helpful to keep in mind. If it's something that we're aware of as we give feedback.
Jess Cisco (28:05):
Right. And so if you're giving the feedback, it's kind of nice to check in. Hey, I have some hopefully helpful information. Is now a good time?
Troy Blaser (28:13):
Jess Cisco (28:14):
Checking in. Well, actually, I'm not feeling that great. I didn't sleep well. Could we do it tomorrow?
Troy Blaser (28:20):
Or bring food with you when you come to give the the feeback. Here's a Snickers bar. Is this a good time? You know.
Jess Cisco (28:27):
Now is a great time.
Troy Blaser (28:29):
I love it. Jess, can you tell us, are there, are there any projects right now that you're working on that you're especially excited about that you could share with us?
Jess Cisco (28:39):
Sure. I have a few things that I'm working on. Probably most of us always have something hopefully interesting, but I, right now I'm teaching and I have a pretty full semester in addition to other duties that I have. But what I am looking forward to in the future, I'd like to put together, now that travel seems to be coming back and people are moving around more, I'm hoping to put together an experience in Zicatela, Playa Zicatela in Puerto Escondido in Oaxaca, Mexico.
Troy Blaser (29:11):
Jess Cisco (29:12):
And so, I'd like to put together an experience for a handful of people, 10 or 12, that want to go on an adventure with surfing as part of the backdrop. So I'm working on a new experience in Playa Zicatela, I haven't been there before. So I'm going to go and explore it this winter. Also a trip to Bali could be a potential future experience with ActiveLeading. So a couple of those things. And then hopefully in summer 2023, I'll be launching a new service called Boat FLX, if you're ever in the Ithaca, New York, Cayuga Lake area, I'm hoping to have my captain certification and be able to take people out on Cayuga Lake, either for just a comfortable tour on a boat, maybe with some food and some beverages, or if you're interested, wake surfing, wakeboarding, even wake foiling, if you know what that is.
Troy Blaser (30:08):
Jess Cisco (30:08):
I'm hoping to put together a couple of things that live up to more of, if you think of the name of my company, ActiveLeading. So a little bit of leadership, a little bit of growth, but hopefully a lot of activity, a lot of health and fitness and adventure sports, is one of the things that we enjoy doing a lot and hope to bring enjoyment to other people's lives as well.
Troy Blaser (30:32):
I love that idea of finding ways to have some kind of an adventure.
Jess Cisco (30:36):
Troy Blaser (30:38):
Well, Jess, if people want to know more, if they want to continue the conversation with you, what should they do? What are some ways for them to get in touch with you?
Jess Cisco (30:47):
Well, probably the best way would be either through email, you can contact me from my website, activeleading.com. There's also a contact form if you want to sign up for any of our newsletters or blog posts, things like that. But that'd be a great place to start. Thank you, Troy.
Troy Blaser (31:11):
And I imagine you're on LinkedIn too. They can probably find you there.
Jess Cisco (31:15):
Troy Blaser (31:22):
Cool. I love it. Well, fantastic. Jess, this conversation has been interesting to me. I, I'm excited about the idea of some of these adventures that you're planning. I think it's fantastic that you're finding ways to incorporate that into your career. I think that's amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Jess Cisco (31:40):
Thank you, Troy. It was really a pleasure. I enjoyed our conversation too. And thank you all for listening again.