Lori-Ann Duguay (00:00):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the first step I'm gonna say is if you're gonna give feedback, don't just say, good job, because that really doesn't tell me what behavior to repeat. Be specific and make sure that you're providing feedback that tells them precisely what behavior to repeat and or what behavior to avoid. Next time.
Troy Blaser (00:23):
Hello and welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast brought to you by LearningBridge. I'm your host, Troy Blazer. I'm excited for another episode of our podcast today. Our guest is Lori Duguay. Lori is the founder and CEO of People-Powered Solutions. And in that position, Lori helps organizations with a growth mindset ignite organizational transformation by helping them assess and optimize their end-to-end employee journey and talent management strategy. She meets you where you are and helps you create the in-house capacity infrastructure and leadership required to attract, engage, and retain talent by combining skills as a certified dispute resolution practitioner and expertise accumulated. Over years of working in government, as an HR strategist with powerful Everything DiSC psychometric tools, Lori provides organizations with the training tools and resources required to unleash their team's full potential. Lori Duguay, welcome to Simply Feedback. It's great to have you with us today.
Lori-Ann Duguay (01:25):
Thanks for having me on the show.
Troy Blaser (01:27):
I'm excited. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. You know, maybe just as a way to sort of get to know you just a little bit and, and kind of hear about you, I wonder if you could tell us about a time that maybe somebody gave you some feedback that was pivotal for you, that maybe marked a turning point or, or had an impact on your life, whether that's personal or professional. Is there a story you could share with us?
Lori-Ann Duguay (01:49):
I'm sure there's actually quite a few. I've had a few of those pivotal moments, but you're right. I find that that the most valuable feedback I've received in my life has spurred some level of evolution or growth, right? So, yeah, there's definitely a story. For 21 years I worked in government and for I would say, oh, a good 10 of those 21 years, I wasn't the happiest. I was essentially a tenant of the workplace. You know, I was there, yeah, I was doing what was required, but really I wasn't feeling all that excited about going to work every Monday morning. That being said about in 2014, decided to go back to school and complete my postgraduate in HR management, labor relations. So then I started consulting on the side and I, I kept waiting to, you know, I knew that eventually my, my idea was to, you know, not retire from government.
Lori-Ann Duguay (02:40):
I wanted to make an exit. The plan was in place. I was building the credentials mm-hmm. , and I spoke to a professional coach and I was having a conversation with her and I was saying, you know, I'd love to do what you do 'cause it really fascinates me that you're able to help people kind of grow and evolve on a daily basis. And she was also a facilitator for Everything DISC. And I said, how do I get to do what, what you do? And she said, well, tell me about what your plan is. So I told her about, you know, what I was doing, the consulting piece and, and how I'd been building some of the tools that I would use eventually in the consulting business if and when I'm able to do it on a more full-time basis. And I only had one client at that time and I said, you know, I've got this one client, but he's kind of my Guinea pig and mm-hmm.
Lori-Ann Duguay (03:22):
, I'm just, I'm doing it all pro bono. And I said, you know, and she says, why are you waiting to have all your pieces in place? How do you know that those pieces you're gonna build are exactly what your clients actually want? You're kind of presupposing that they want all that. She said, you just take the leap, just jump, you know, go out, put yourself out there, get a couple more contracts, and use those contracts as a means of figuring out what the actual needs are. And lo and behold, when I got out there and I started doing those contracts, I never touched the tools I was building. 'cause She was a hundred percent correct that I didn't, that's not what the clients wanted. I was coming in with my very government compliance-driven brain. Mm-Hmm. And I was thinking of imposing that on these private sector employers.
Lori-Ann Duguay (04:03):
And that's not at all how they roll. Right. So it was super interesting to take that advice and kind of see it manifest a hundred percent. She, she knew what she was talking about. So that was a pivotal moment. 'cause That's where I started to take on more clients. And that, you know, two, two to three years later, I was able to leave my government job and make it a permanent set kind of severed situation and be able to do what I love. I didn't, I haven't worked since, essentially. I know it's cheesy, but I feel like I haven't. So that's my advice, that's my feedback. That was really pivotal for me.
Troy Blaser (04:35):
You found something you're passionate about so it doesn't feel like work. Right?
Lori-Ann Duguay (04:38):
Troy Blaser (04:40):
You know, I, I really like that sort of, that feedback of a bias to action of stop fiddling around and, and, and go out and find that work. You know, in my own experience, I found there's not, there's, there's not much else that is as motivating as the stress of a deadline or filling a contract that you have. It's like, okay, we'll get it figured out by such and such a date because we have this contract rather than playing around where it's safe. Right. Where you don't have to Exactly. Yeah.
Lori-Ann Duguay (05:07):
Yeah. It forces that creative juice flow. Like things just start, you need to figure it out. You need to build what needs to be built, and it gives you that focus area. And I, I as well work really well with that, that timeline of I've committed to delivering this to this client by this date. So. Right. I bet you're I it on that. Right. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (05:26):
Well, plus it's nice to have the revenue that comes with an actual contract as well if you're trying to build a business
Lori-Ann Duguay (05:31):
Or Yeah. Or the security to be able to eventually step away from, you know, the golden handcuffs of government pension and benefits.
Troy Blaser (05:39):
Lori-Ann Duguay (05:40):
That was helpful as well, . Exactly.
Troy Blaser (05:42):
I know I know that you're writing a book. Tell, tell us what it's about. Why would it be interesting to our listeners?
Lori-Ann Duguay (05:50):
What I'm writing about is something that I had yet to find. I primarily delve in the workplace culture kind of, of realm. I, I work a lot with organizations that helping them build that highly sought after employee experience. And where, you know, there's a lot of literature out there and articles talking about, you know, what motivates people at work, what, what increases engagement, what makes people wanna show up and, and really work and, and work to a level that they're that to their full potential. Right? And so there's tons of literature on there, but then as an HR person, I'd read that and I'd be like, okay, now what? Mm-Hmm. How do you actually marry that and, and operationalize this? I know this is what makes people wanna show up, but, but how, what's the methodology to put, take this information and then operationalize it?
Lori-Ann Duguay (06:35):
So I decided to just, I couldn't find the book. So I, I, I wrote the book on how do you take that and then map out your current state, map out your existing employee experience. And when I talk about mapping out that employee experience, we talk about these key touch points, which seem to be where people either leave the organization or they become, you know, checked out and disengaged, which is just as costly, right? And we're seeing increases in absenteeism. So I talk about recruitment attraction, onboarding orientation. So when you're bringing the people in and mm-hmm. , helping them acclimatize to their surroundings, how do you set them up for success? And, and the importance of not making it a half day or a one week exercise, that it should be a 90 day supported experience. And that there should be training plans to accompany that, that you should be facilitating connection with peers.
Lori-Ann Duguay (07:23):
And I talk about how to do that. And then once they're fully trained, you're not done right, because people wanna know that there's room to grow. So then the book also covers how to map out, you know, the way that you're training and developing your people and, and what kind of opportunities that you need to be providing to them, and what might that look like, and what are some solutions you can implement the minute you're done reading that chapter. Right? And then through to exit and understand, oh, sorry, I forgot the performance management. Oh yeah. And how to use that exercise to continuously measure, engage, how you're showing up on all these, at all these other touch points. And to continuously measure, engage the level of engagement throughout the organization, but also to equip your leadership to be able to coach and empower people into mapping out a plan, mapping out some stretch goals with that tool.
Lori-Ann Duguay (08:09):
And then finally at exit, a lot of organizations fall short of using that exit of an employee to continue to gather the data that you then use to improve your overall employee experience. So the book is about, of course, deep diving into what are the 10 things that drive motivation, but then here's what you can do about it. We talk about my three M approach. So map map, measure and mobilize mm-hmm. , and then how to implement that. And at the end, there's an action plan. So as you're finishing each of those, those, those touch points, you can start to note where you think, what are some, you know, quick wins, low-hanging fruit that you guys could actually change within the week after. What is some medium and longer term initiatives you can implement? And then you've got, got a plan to effectively increase the level of engagement and improve that end-to-end employee experience.
Troy Blaser (09:00):
I, I really liked the, the spot that you found there to say, to bridge that gap, right? To really operationalize, to come out of, of reading a book with an action plan. Things that I can take to the office and put into place rather than just reading about the academics of it, you know.
Lori-Ann Duguay (09:17):
Now I know, but now what? Right? Yes. I feel like we were all stuck on the now whats, and, and in short of understanding how you, you marry it with your existing talent management process, right? How are you currently talent, you know, managing your talent, how are you helping them grow and develop? Well, you marry this new information by figuring out where there's room to tweak within that existing process, right? Yeah. Also, I'm wanting to give people a voice. So the next thing you're gonna see launch, I believe it should launch within the next week, is an opportunity. I've got 10 to 12 questions that people can weigh in on and answer for their, from their experience. You know, what they believe is the top reason that people leave an organization. And, you know, what are some of the, and I use my 10 drivers to kind of measure, and then I'm gonna showcase the responses, right? According, we, we, and I'm gonna take a hundred people, so that'll be my sample size. And according to a hundred individuals, you know, surveyed for this, these are the top three reasons. So look, and then we'll showcase their name at the end of the book as a thank you. So their name will appear print. Yeah. So that's my next initiative. And then basically I am apparently set to launch by late summer, early fall. So I'm pretty
Troy Blaser (10:34):
Excited. That's when we can watch for the book to hit the shelves is late summer, early fall.
Lori-Ann Duguay (10:38):
Troy Blaser (10:39):
So we'll be on the edge of our seats to find out what the title is when you launch and, and be ready to go out and pick it up. That sounds really exciting. I love how you're incorporating feedback into the writing process and even then acknowledging some of the folks that give you that feedback in the book. That's really cool.
Lori-Ann Duguay (10:56):
Exactly. It's, it's about, I, you know, I recognize that my experience is unique but also not unique. So I wanna try and figure out where are there some, some trends happening mm-hmm. and also be able to identify, kind of vary that perspective, right? Identify where there might be some, some different thoughts that I could integrate as well. So I'm excited about being able to gather that variety of feedback, that variety of perspective, and then integrate it for sure.
Troy Blaser (11:23):
That's cool. You talked, as you were explaining the different touch points you talked about onboarding and, and some of the other touch points all the way through to exit interviewing. And I appreciated the tips and the thoughts you have around onboarding and, and trying to make that be a little bit more of a process than I think sometimes happens when you come on at a new company. But I also wanted to ask you about quiet quitting. Can you talk a little bit about, about those thoughts around quiet, quitting, you know, it's a trend that we're seeing today in a lot of companies. What role does feedback play in quiet quitting, whether that's the employees receiving feedback or the employees giving feedback back to the employer? What are your thoughts about that?
Lori-Ann Duguay (12:07):
Great question. If a lot of your listeners are in the HR realm, I would, I would suspect that there's some eye rolling happening. The minute we say quiet quitting. Okay. Because it's not a new trend. They found a new word,
Troy Blaser (12:21):
Lori-Ann Duguay (12:21):
A new word for an existing phenomenon, right? That's been challenging organizations for tens of years, like tons of years, not 10 years.
Troy Blaser (12:29):
Yes. Decades. Easy.
Lori-Ann Duguay (12:31):
Thank you. My French coming out there, . Essentially it's, it's disengagement. It's active disengagement. It's someone otherwise checking out from that workplace culture, right? And, and one of the things, one of my drivers is communication. And part of that communication includes feedback and creating and, and, and normalizing feedback. When I talk about feedback, I'm not just talking that it's all on the manager's soldiers, either the leader's shoulders. It should really be about building the system that facilitates and fuels the flow of feedback in a 360 loop, right? You wanna make sure that that feedback is flowing top down. Obviously through town halls, people are saying, what's going on? 'cause People wanna be in the know, they wanna understand where's this organized organization working towards? What is it they're working towards? Sorry. And how does the work I do connect to that, right? Yeah.
Lori-Ann Duguay (13:20):
How do you actually communicate that by providing that feedback, giving them that, that perspective top down town halls and letting them know, and then peer-to-peer, that's the best feedback in my opinion. Because if my boss tells me, you know, the way that you presented to that client was really impactful, I that visual really helped them see what was happening then. That's, that's cool. Thank you. I know to repeat that behavior, 'cause that's the purpose of feedback, right? Yeah. But if as valuable to then my colleague that says, oh my God, if you hadn't been there with the way that you presented the visual, it seemed like they were getting lost on that and you saved the day by providing me, you know, that, that providing that visual, that was so helpful and I'm so appreciative of that, that that's worth a lot more to me, right?
Lori-Ann Duguay (14:01):
Because I spend 8, 10, 12 hours with these people a day. Yeah. Your peer, that's the, that's one of the most valuable sources of feedback. But a lot of organizations fall short in facilitating the flow of that feedback. And then of course, bottom up, right? Enabling people to send their feedback through the exit interviews to tell them how they can show up better, how they can better support using that performance development exercise to again, gather additional feedback and to help you understand how people prefer, what's the preference for receiving feedback? Are they okay for you to call out and give them feedback in a public kind of arena? So a, a team meeting, or would they prefer a more private one-on-one conversation? So definitely the feedback is one of the number one complaints or lack thereof when it comes to employee disengagement or quiet quitting. So people just decide, you know what? I don't know if I'm doing well. So yeah, I'm, I'm done trying, I'm just gonna check out. And that's what they end up doing. Right? so definitely one of the drivers I talked about in the book is that communication, the feedback that's slow, and even presenting ideas on how, what kind of things they can implement that would facilitate that flow of information.
Troy Blaser (15:15):
Do you have any tips for someone who's, who's sitting in their company saying, oh, I realize that, you know, we have a challenge around feedback in all those multiple directions that you talked about. Is there something that, that would be useful to them just to take that first step?
Lori-Ann Duguay (15:31):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the first step I'm gonna say is if you're gonna give feedback, don't just say good job. Okay. Because that really doesn't tell me what behavior to repeat. Be specific mm-hmm. and make sure that you're providing feedback that tells them precisely what behavior to repeat and or what behavior to avoid next time, right? Yeah. So try and be as specific as possible. So just gonna add that little tidbit in terms of a tip. But when you talk about the systems, you know, at meetings, encourage, ask your, ask your your employees for feedback. Okay guys, I'm thinking about going this direction with this file. What do you guys think about it? And then round table that make it normal for people to chime in, also address the fear. A lot of people will fear providing feedback because they think there'll be repercussion.
Lori-Ann Duguay (16:13):
So make sure that you make it a safe place. Hey guys, really I need your most candid responses here. I just finished a focus group this morning, and that's how we started it. We framed the conversation saying, Hey, the conversation is that we can only fix what we're aware of. Yeah. So please, please, please be as candid and honest as possible. Nothing is off limits as long as it's delivered respectfully. And, and you know, it's not gonna go any further than here. This is just gonna inform our build and design of an academy that we're actually putting together for for leadership. So we need to know where we're falling short. We need to know what are some of the behaviors that you've noticed, encourage that, that feedback. And then of course, surveys, they're, they're your easy one, but it's a way of gathering additional feedback.
Lori-Ann Duguay (16:57):
Sure. Exit interview, definitely. It's a, it's really a pivotal I've got a client right now that we've developed feedback at one week at the end of one week, 30 days, 60 and 90 days as they're, they're orienting to their new role. So you're able to pick up and right away you're telling them, we wanna hear from you, and this is the norm here. This is how we roll. We are a culture of feedback. Yeah. And we value it and we wanna do something about it. So here's your chance to send it up. So just a few tips and, and, and I appreciate that, how to implement it.
Troy Blaser (17:28):
Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. I, I'm reminded of a, one of the, one of the best things that I ever had a manager say to me, and I was part of a meeting, and it was a number of people kind of coming from different parts of the organization. And, and to a certain extent you could come to that meeting and feel like, I'm not really needed here. You know, my part's very minor. And, and the, the manager started the meeting by just saying, Hey, I recognize that you all represent different parts of the organization, but now that we're all here together, we need everybody's, you, you all have a mind, you all have a brain, and we need everybody's opinion to, to be spoken here in the meeting. And it really set the tone, like you were saying, just by calling that out. It's like, oh, okay, well now I'm gonna pay a little bit more attention. And even, you know, I'm, it says that I'm allowed to have an opinion about something that maybe doesn't necessarily concern my part of the organization, right?
Lori-Ann Duguay (18:20):
Correct. But they want my, they want my opinion regardless. I love that example because think about that, right. In that meeting, how it made you feel. Yeah. You got that much more engaged and you suddenly wanted to contribute. Yeah. Your employees want the same thing on a daily basis.
Troy Blaser (18:35):
Yeah, exactly. Everywhere. The other question I was gonna ask you, and, and we'll see if there's anything here, but you talked about being in government for, for many years, 2020 years. But that it wasn't necessarily your, your passion. Was there some level of disengagement that happened for you in that job? I know you said I was still showing up. I was doing the job, but there just wasn't quite the emotion.
Lori-Ann Duguay (19:00):
A hundred percent.
Lori-Ann Duguay (19:02):
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because, and, and now, and that's, that's my next book, . No, seriously. I realize like now that I've, I know what I know. And now that I've done this research and I'm, you know, I know what I can tell you exactly why I got disengaged. I was in a remote location. This is pre covid where virtual wasn't a big thing. Yeah. So I was part of a main office, but I was a satellite. They'd often have meetings and forget to call me. Mm-Hmm. They'd be like, oh, we talked about this at the meeting last week. And I'd be like, meeting. And they'd be like, oh, that's right. We forgot to, to loop you in against, sorry about that. And it's not no fault, nobody's fault, but Right. It made me feel excluded. It made me feel outside the loop. And I felt like I was always an afterthought.
Lori-Ann Duguay (19:47):
I was also in a in a, like geographically, I couldn't apply to any jobs 'cause I had to be within 125 kilometers of a location. Mm-Hmm. . So I felt like what you see here is the most you're gonna get. This is all what you're doing today is what you're gonna be doing in 30 years when you retire. Are you good with that? Right. And I wasn't, I'm a go-getter. I needed room to grow and I couldn't see that growth trajectory. They invested in my development that I will not, you know, take away from them. But I always felt like it was in vain because I felt like, what am I gonna do with it? They won't lemme apply to any other jobs because I'm too far away. And virtual wasn't a thing. Right. Yeah. So definitely I got to, you know what, this allows me to be present in my family. I know my job inside and out. I was an expert at my job and I was, you know, never got any performance complaints by all means. But I was otherwise checked-out. Yeah. I believe at the end of the day, had you asked me to take on a meeting in the evening, I would've been like, no, thank you. I'll go home now. Yeah. Because I, I was otherwise checked-out, so a hundred percent I was disengaged.
Troy Blaser (20:49):
And, and maybe some of that, some of the lessons or some of what you observed or experienced there now plays a role in some of the work that you're doing to move things in the opposite direction. Right. To increase engagement.
Lori-Ann Duguay (21:00):
It's not a maybe there. It's a hundred percent inspired and fueled my passion to help organizations create you know, systems that will avoid employees feeling like that.
Troy Blaser (21:13):
That's amazing. That's really cool. Well, you know, we started our conversation and I asked you about a story when feedback impacted your own life. As you think about the work that you do, I imagine you've had the opportunity to see feedback impact someone else's life as well. You know, in your role as a consultant, as a coach. Is there maybe a story or an anecdote you can share with us when you've, you've sort of observed feedback impact someone's life, whether it was for good or for bad? That feedback?
Lori-Ann Duguay (21:44):
Absolutely. well, for, for bad, I give my daughter feedback all the time, yet I don't , I still seem to, you know, stumble over her, her backpack in the entrance. So that's the, that doesn't seem
Troy Blaser (21:55):
The negative feedback.
Lori-Ann Duguay (21:57):
I was very specific with it too, at the entrance, it needs to be in the closet, but apparently it's falling short.
Troy Blaser (22:06):
There's something, nobody, we haven't quite cracked that parent child relationship in quite the same way, that the manager you know, the supervisor and direct report relationship,
Lori-Ann Duguay (22:17):
I hundred percent agree. But when I started my business, I, I started working well, a number of people, you know, reached out and said, you know, Lori, I'm willing to pay you, but I know I'm not happy and I know that my current position will never allow me to get to where I need to get to get that happiness. So I need to, you know, plan what that next chapter might look like. So of course, I feel like that whole pay it forward rule, I was so blessed to be able to do this full time. So I, I took on about six people that I was like coaching and providing feedback in terms of what that next step might look like. And to, and, and as of today, four of those six people are now self-employed and have left their jobs. So it's, it's exciting to see that they, they, I was able to take away that intimidation factor that they had and, and help talk them through some of the fears that might be preventing them from taking the leap.
Lori-Ann Duguay (23:16):
Right. And from moving away from the security of that job and, and understanding that it's, it's not as complicated as we might, you know, think at first, there's, there's pieces of the business management side that I'm not a fan of, and I know I don't that right. Like that whole numbers piece. But the beauty of it is you can encourage someone else to step away from their position who are unhappy. And, and that's exactly what happened in my case. It's a, you know, someone who's unhappy that decided to leave, leave and started doing bookkeeping. I'm like, well, beautiful. I hate bookkeeping. Yeah. So I could be one of your clients and that, that might add to your security to not have to go back someone else who wanted to step away and provided me with some support administratively and figuring out some of the logistics. And I'm like, I'm willing to do this long term if you are. And she's like, wow, if I'd have one secure client, I think that'd be enough to help me make my decision. I'm like, okay, let's do that. So we're able to kind of support each other, provide each other feedback, and then elevate so that we can all step into, you know, a more passion fueled career.
Troy Blaser (24:21):
I love that. I, I, that is something that I, I think it seems like it could be difficult to keep in mind contemplating from a, there can be a whole network of individuals doing their own thing, supporting one another. That's another as you, as you take the time to go out and find them.
Lori-Ann Duguay (24:48):
Exactly. That's another piece of feedback that was pivotal for me. Oh my God, you just reminded me. And I believe he was the partner of the other person who actually prompted me. And I was talking, I'm like, so any piece of advice is like, don't ever say no. I'm like, pardon me? And he's like, don't ever say no, even if you can't do it yourself, I know you, you're resourceful. You can find someone who can do it, and then you can just, you know, source them. And I'm like mm-hmm. , I don't have to do it all. . Right. I'm like, okay. And even as you grow, you realize, just because I can doesn't mean I should. Mm-Hmm. But I can still source people who can. Right. Yeah. And that's how you, you scale it up. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (25:27):
Lori-Ann Duguay (25:31):
That other, I'm like, oh yeah. I remember him saying, you know, just never say no. And I'm like, really?
Troy Blaser (25:38):
Figure it out. It sounds it's, it reminds me of, of an actor gonna a, a, you know, a, a tryout to, to, to try to get a part and you always say yes, right? They say, can you ride a horse? Yes, I can. Right. Even inside you're like, I've gotta learn how to ride a horse in order to get this. Yeah.
Lori-Ann Duguay (25:55):
Troy Blaser (25:55):
But you never say no. You just say yes and then you figure it out. Right.
Lori-Ann Duguay (25:59):
Troy Blaser (25:59):
Yes. Well, Lori, you've given us really a ton of, of advice and, and ideas. As, as we've had our conversation here for a little while you know, as you think about our audience and you don't have to give away your secret sauce necessarily, but is, is there any additional advice that you could offer to our listeners that you would share with us?
Lori-Ann Duguay (26:20):
It's funny, just as you were, we were signing off, I was thinking, oh, in light of the audience, in light of, you know, everything we've talked about and, and, and the fact that you gave the example that you hadn't, you didn't feel heard sometimes and you didn't wanna put your opinion. 'cause You're like, yeah, I don't really, feedback is about helping the other individual feel heard. And when people, people leave jobs where they don't feel they have a voice. Right. So fueling and enabling, facilitating, I mean, and enabling that feedback to flow will have that byproduct of helping people feel seen and heard, which will make them stick around. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (27:00):
I love that. Well, if people want to know more, if they wanna continue the conversation with you, I imagine that's something you'd be open to, but what, what should they do? How, how should they continue the conversation?
Lori-Ann Duguay (27:12):
They can continue the conversation by connecting on LinkedIn. I am, I do have a page People-Powered Solutions on LinkedIn as well as my own private LinkedIn, Lori-Ann Duguay. They can also, you know, check out my website at bepeoplepower.com and there is a Contact Us link on there as well. And when the book finally comes out, you know, I can share it with I'll, I'll let you know and you can share your, your audience.
Troy Blaser (27:39):
Absolutely. I'll be, I'll be keeping a close watch on bepeoplepower.com and, and the LinkedIn page. Yep. We'll see what the title of the book turns out to be. But it sounds exciting. It sounds like it would be really interesting and, and super helpful in terms of putting those ideas and thoughts into action. Absolutely. For, for people. Lori, thank you so much for this conversation today. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a pleasure to get to know you a little bit and to hear some of your ideas and, and to feel the passion that you have for the work that you're doing. It's been wonderful.
Lori-Ann Duguay (28:08):
It's been awesome chatting with you as well. And thank you for sharing and, and giving me this opportunity and allowing me to share with your audience.