Well-being Leadership

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 0:00

Some leaders they have this that they want to add too much value all the time. But they can add like a 5% of value, but they lose 30% of commitment. Because then they are this idea is not for them. It's our idea, you know. That's why we need to teach leaders to be a better leader coach, you know. Ask better questions, have this empathy, and uh listen. Because listening is one of the most important uh leadership skills you can have.

Troy Blaser 0:36

Hello and welcome to another episode of Simply Feedback, the podcast brought to you by Learning Bridge. I'm your host, Troy Blaser. It's great to be with you for another episode. I am excited today to have a conversation with our guest. Let me introduce him. Our guest today is Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira. Julian is the founder of Wellbeing Leadership, also a founding partner of Marshall Goldsmith Stakeholder Centered Leadership Development, and an executive coach who helps leaders build healthier, higher performing organizations. Drawing on years of international leadership experience and his work with major organizations such as Adidas, the World Bank, and Zara, Julian focuses on the connection between leadership, well-being, and sustainable business performance. Today, we'll explore how leaders can create cultures where people and organizations can thrive without sacrificing results. Julian, welcome to Simply Feedback. It's great to have you with us today.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 1:36

Really happy to be here with you and this amazing podcast.

Troy Blaser 1:40

Thanks. Maybe to get us started, a question that we ask all of our guests because it helps us get to know you just a little bit and sort of brings up our theme of feedback. I wonder if you can tell us about a time that somebody gave you feedback. Maybe it had an impact on your personal life, your professional life. Is there a moment where you received some feedback that was meaningful to you?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 2:03

Yeah, I can remember. So Marshall Goldsmith is my you know my role model, a person who I work a lot and I admire a lot. And it was one day he told me, uh, Julian, you know, you can be more. So, you know, I was I wrote my first book with 32 years old. I worked with international companies, with really big clients. But he challenged me, you know, to think bigger, to impact even more people. Uh, that's why one of the reasons we are uh writing a book together. Uh, and that feedback for me was extremely important to to think bigger, you know, and and also have this mindset to serve and help more more people, more leaders around the world. So you this you can be more was really uh important for me.

Troy Blaser 2:52

It's it's amazing how um, well, I'll just say this. Uh for several years now, I have participated with our local high school uh mountain biking team as a as an assistant coach and and been riding with them and helping them. And this season, I have been uh serving as the head coach of the team. And this idea that you just spoke of, you can be more as feedback, um, really resonates with me in my role as a coach because that's really what coaches are all about, right? It's reminding us or informing us and and giving us the inspiration and the motivation to be more. Um so in that case, it sounds like Marshall had a vision for you that maybe was bigger than your own vision, and and he's kind of inspiring you to work towards that vision.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 3:41

Yeah, and that's great because he's he was able, you know, to to make me believe or my capacity to to have a bigger impact. So I think it's one of the main things that the leader should do is like increase the self-efficiency of the people to think, you know, you can be more, you can do more, you can have more impact. Uh so that's that's very important.

Troy Blaser 4:03

That's awesome. You know, many organizations, uh I should say, in in our introduction, as we read through um your bio, we talked about well-being leadership. Um and I know many organizations talk about well-being, well-being of their employees. In your work, like I said, you talk about well-being leadership. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is, that sort of that extra twist of well-being leadership, and and why you see that as a leadership capability rather than just an employee benefit?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 4:34

That's a great question. Actually, you know, for me, something that we we do in our leadership programs and trainings is you know, explain that uh performance is sustainable uh because of the well-being, and the well-being is shaped by leadership. So it's very important to understand that connection uh between performance, well-being, and leadership. So that that's the way you know that you can get sustainable business results. Um and we can see some research from Oxford that they study the 100-best uh companies in terms of well-being, and they perform better in in the stock market, you know, than the SP 500 and NASDAQ companies. So it's very important to understand that well-being is important to achieve business results, not only because it's great or is you know, is you have a nap or a yoga class or whatever, that some sometimes people is think about well-being only like a perk or something like that. But well-being is very uh, you know, important to to have these uh goals, bigger goals that the company needs. And also we achieve that through the leadership because you can, you know, the company can can do a lot of things, but if your boss is calling is calling you every Saturday night, you're not going to have well-being in your life. So that's so important.

Troy Blaser 5:57

So you're kind of saying it it's something that needs to be elevated in terms of what leadership is paying attention to, instead of just being relegated down, oh, HR will take care of that with our weekly yoga class or whatever it might be. Um, it's something that leadership needs to actually be paying attention to.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 6:16

Yeah, even because after the pandemic, uh we see that the best companies need the well, you know, if you don't have well-being in your company, the best people right now they don't want to work in the in the companies that they are not taking care of well-being. And people, you know, we have a lot of clients and very important clients that said we are losing people because of the well-being. And one thing that happened is that the the leader, uh, he or she doesn't have the skills to treat and to develop that skill. That is very, very important. So we we are finding a lot of leaders that they think that burnout is an issue right now, but they don't they don't know how to do how to solve that. So that's the uh the skills we build, we help uh you know build in those those capabilities to leaders.

Troy Blaser 7:06

That's fantastic. Are there are there trade-offs you think that leaders tend to make? Maybe they don't need to be making them, but they tend to make some trade-offs between business results and employee well-being. Do they feel like there's a choice and I can either have employee well-being or business results?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 7:24

Yeah, I think this is a paradigm because people think like, or I choose one or the other, you know, it's like, or I choose performance or I choose well-being. So our, you know, what we teach the leaders is like you can do both. Actually, to sustain the performance, you need the well-being. Because if people is working like uh 20 hours or all weekends, they are not going, you know, to perform in the long term. Actually, only 2% of the of the individuals in companies, they sustain performance for two consecutive years. So that that number is is is you know, is uh it's crazy. It's too only 2%. So we help companies to have this performance sustain over time. That's why it's so important to bring that that concept to to the leadership, to the leadership theme, you know.

Troy Blaser 9:22

It sounds like a little bit like the trade-off, maybe uh it's not a valid trade-off, but leaders might think, well, I need some short-term results, so I'm gonna I'm gonna give up on well-being, but they're sacrificing long-term sustainability when they make that trade-off.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 9:38

Yeah, and this happened, you know. Uh we see the numbers of burn-out right now, the of people that, and this is the cost is huge. Uh we are talking about only more than one trillion dollars uh in due to mental health issues, you know, anxiety. Uh, we talk about anxiety, depression. Uh so it's the numbers right now are are very are critical. So we need to, you know, to take a look on that. Uh because if we only see the short term, we lose the long term. And and right now, sustainability, the sustainability is is critical for the business, but not only in when we talk about business results and about money, about the people that is going to sustain their results.

Troy Blaser 10:21

Yeah. Are there, so thinking about the podcast Simply Feedback. Are there ways that leaders unintentionally undermine well-being through the way that they give feedback? Or maybe they avoid giving feedback?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 10:35

Yeah, I like, you know, the uh the I saw this a lot that we have, you know, some options here. One option is that leader that uh we talk about empathy and clarity, you know. They they are clear about what they expect, but they don't have empathy. So, you know, this kind of feedback that uh I remember actually uh you know one leader that he was at C level. And when some leaders that I were was working with, that you know, senior directors or vice president, they were crying after those meetings, you know, crying. Like some, you know, somebody with 50 years old is like, why are you crying? It's like he was so tough. And and this is this is not effective because you know, this leader is he's not going to be uh engaged or he's going to improve, maybe in the short term, but in the long term, he's going to say, I don't want to be here, you know. But then on the other side, we have the people that you know they they have this empathy, they don't treat bad the the person, but they are avoiding being being clear, you know, bringing the reality to life. So uh and that can be really dangerous all also in terms of well-being. So um, you know, I I had an experience, actually it was a bad, a really bad experience. I was uh I was uh I, an HR leader, so I had a leader that he told me, okay, I have uh you know a person on my team that she's not performing well, but they hired that you know that person like three three months ago. So I said, why? You know, I was questioning and asking, you know, you hired her. Like she was working nine years, yeah, nine years in another company, so you know, you should give like a chance, you know. Uh but he was, and and the other, you know, he's the leader of this uh this leader was no, we need to get rid of that person. And then we went to the you know to the meeting to you know to fire that that person, and she said that the last feedback that that leader gave to me was that I was the the Messi of UX, or user experience, you know, the Messi, so right now in the world cup, yeah one of the best football players in history. And the last feedback was you were you are the Messi of your role, and now you're firing me, you know what I mean?

Troy Blaser 13:08

Yeah, there was no clarity there,

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 13:10

No clarity at all. So that's you know, really, really uh dangerous also in terms of of well-being.

Troy Blaser 13:20

So that's very interesting. I like how you boiled it down to that balance between empathy and clarity, and there really needs to be some of both mixed in there together. And it either either direction, too much empathy or too much clarity with not enough empathy, can be um harmful to somebody's well-being. Um and and I think people as employees can certainly understand that, you know, maybe it is that managers are afraid to be too clear because they're afraid of stepping on toes or hurting feelings. So they they come with lots and lots of empathy, but that clarity isn't there, or whether that's clarity around, like you said, you know, this employee thought that she was performing fantastically when she wasn't. Or it could even be clarity around, you know, a manager's just not being clear about what is to be done. Um and so the employee is left wondering, well, I think my manager empathizes with me and really likes me, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing to in this role that I'm in, um, because there hasn't been enough clarity there. So, what feedback do our leaders need to hear, but maybe they often don't in terms of this of well-being. So if it's well-being leadership, what feedback do the leaders need to hear in regards to well-being?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 14:39

This happened a lot with me because I worked with a lot of leaders in in really uh big companies, and they I saw a lot of leaders with burnout, like uh, and then going through like long uh some weeks out of work, start with you know, mess and and very difficult situations. So one one feedback they they shouldn't avoid is if you continue working in this rhythm, yeah, you're not going, you're not going to last. So and sometimes we think, okay, let's do a little more. Uh for example, I I am a person that I work a lot and I like I love my work, and normally, but I had a burnout because it's really thin the line between I perform a lot, I do a lot of things, but if you are not able to, you know, to say, okay, this is my limit, no more than here. And uh sometimes it's about what we teach in our leadership programs, is like sometimes it's small things. For example, you need to be more clear about what you expect. For example, if I am your leader uh and you don't know what I'm expecting about you, your work, you can work every day, every weekend, but it's always work to do, you know what I mean? So

Troy Blaser 16:00

yeah, yeah,

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 16:01

Clarity of expectations, have difficult conversations, all those things are really important to avoid, you know, that line between high performance and burnout.

Troy Blaser 16:13

I appreciate that. And like you say, the the clarity can can also be there for the expectations of how much you should work. Uh a manager can be clear. I don't expect you to do this over the weekend because I value your well-being. You know, it's a task that needs to be completed, but but you don't need to be burning yourself out to complete it. And in that sense, you know, managers are uh need to lead by example. Um I think that's something that you emphasize in the work that you do, that importance of leading by example. What is one behavior that leaders often underestimate, maybe because it seems too small to matter in terms of the example that they're setting for their employees?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 16:55

Uh for me is uh one that you know uh is recognition. For me, is the leadership leadership action that you need less effort and has more impact, you know. Uh if you have this metric of effort, uh low effort and high impact is recognition. If you see some research about, for example, standard foreman, so they said that if you if you choose the the worst 10% of the leaders in terms of recognition, they are in the percentile 27 of engagement. But if you choose the 10 best 10% best of the leaders in terms of recognition, they are in the percentile uh 69. So that means that the correlation between engagement and recognition is huge, you know. Um so and actually I had a role in a big company for we studied like 10,000 people, what have in common the best leaders, and it was two things. The best leaders they gave better feedback and more feedback, and they gave more and better recognition. So that things are free. You don't need you need to ask for a budget, you know, you are a leader. No, I need a budget for giving feedback or recognize my people. It's only, you know, uh do the basics well. If you didn't do the basics well, because sometimes leaders think, oh, I need to do one thousand 1000 things differently or well. Do the basics well, recognize your people, you know, give good feedback, and then you have half of the way.

Troy Blaser 18:30

Yeah, it goes a long way. I really like that idea, uh, low effort, high impact behaviors. I think that's a great approach. I know that you have worked closely with Marshall Goldsmith. Um, and I know Marshall is famous for saying, what got you here won't get you there. So are there some specific habits that leaders often need to unlearn things that they were doing that got them to here, but they need to unlearn to get to there?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 18:59

Yeah, I love actually I love this. Is one of my favorite books. Uh Marshall sold two million books only with this, with this title. So it's this is like, you know, like a very famous one. And Marshall, in those all those years working with CEOs and C C level um executives, he, you know, he he found those 20 behaviors. But the three more, you know, for me, the most important, what I see most. The first is winning too much. You know, successful people they want to win all the time. Uh and that sometimes you we you can think that that's good to bring you here, but it's not going to bring you there, you know what I mean? And I I can give a personal uh example here because this is one of the behaviors I try to improve because you know I'm very competitive. I like I like to win. Um and I remember it was it was more of a personal example. I was visiting my family two years ago before to go to Marshall's home in Nashville. And I was reading the book, you know, and I remember that my dad, you know, I uh I I I don't stay with my family so often because I live very far away. And they want to, my father wanted to go to the beach, and he told me, I want to go to this beach. Uh uh, and I said, No, I want to go to other one. And then we were like fighting because we want to choose. And then I I was, you know, uh on the beach, like reading the book about the winning too much, and I said, like, why do I need to win that? I only want to be with my dad. I don't I don't need to win that battle, you know. And this this

Troy Blaser 20:41

Yeah,

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 20:41

this happened a lot in terms of of the business, you know. Uh, because sometimes you you don't need to win. Uh you need to let your people your team win or other person win, you know. So that's that's one example. Other for me, other behavior is uh avoiding recognition. You know, we were talking about this. Is think okay, I'm only going to recognize your work if this is like a huge recon like something huge. Or no, if I recognize my team, this, you know, people leaders uh say that a lot. If I recognize them, they are going, they are not going to work or perform. It's the opposite, you know what I mean? But they have this belief, you know. This old belief that they need to push, push, push all the time.

Troy Blaser 21:30

I want to keep them hungry for and by withholding that recognition, they'll stay hungry and they'll keep working hard.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 21:36

Yeah, but they leave.

Troy Blaser 21:39

Yeah.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 21:40

They leave the company.

Troy Blaser 21:42

I mean, I think if that were the way I was thinking about it, it I would say, well, does that apply to me? If if I'm working with no recognition, do I stay motivated to work hard or do I give up because there's no reward there, right? And and so yeah, it seems like that is is not a it's certainly not something that leads to well-being to withhold that recognition, but rather to pour it on.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 22:04

Yeah, for sure, for sure, Troy. And um I think the third for me is adding too much value. And I love this because a lot of leaders, you know, they want to, for example, I was talking with somebody from my team and she gave me like a great plan for something we are building. And sometimes we have this, we want to say, no, but do this, you know, this extra thing, but then it's not their idea, it's our idea. And we some leaders they have this that they want to add too much value all the time, but they can add like a 5% of value, but they lose 30% of commitment because then they are this idea is not for them, uh, it's our idea, you know. That's why we need to teach leaders to be a better leader coach, you know. Ask better questions, have this empathy and uh listen. Because listening is one of the most important uh leadership skills you can have.

Troy Blaser 23:05

I really like that idea of. Being careful not to give, you don't need to add value to the project because if by doing that or doing it too much, then your employees lose that motivation because they they lose ownership, they feel like they're losing ownership of it.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 23:22

Yeah, for sure. It doesn't mean that, for example, if somebody is is doing the wrong thing, for sure, you as a leader, you need to correct or give that that visibility. But sometimes, you know, if the thing is you don't need to all the time add in value and because the other person is going to lose motivation. So we need to understand how how psychology works in terms of keeping people engaged and motivated.

Troy Blaser 23:48

I really like that. Um, you know, and it could be that I, as a manager, maybe I used to be in that role that my employee is in, and I was passionate about that, but it's important that I need to recognize I'm not in that role anymore. I'm in the role of a manager to encourage this employee to do what I used to do. I don't need to bring my old role in to try to add value to what my employee was already working on.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 24:15

Yeah.

Troy Blaser 24:15

Instead, I need to focus on my current role as a manager. Well, okay, so in your time as an executive coach, I wonder, you've shared some fantastic stories and some great examples of the principles at work here. But in your work as an executive coach, is there a specific experience or a time when you've seen feedback cause a point of inflection in someone's career as you've been able to work with them and coach them?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 24:40

Yeah, I think uh like uh because I'm a coach and I receive coaching as well, you know, because I think for being for being a great coach, you need to be a great coach ee first. You know, have this coachability, you know, this capacity to to be coachable. And and I I want to give like a personal example because for me was um my coach one once told me, like, you are like you are a Ferrari, but you are going in the wrong direction direction in terms of the kind of work and you know how it was working, pushing, maybe working in places, toxic places that shouldn't work. And you know, she told me that, and and for me it was like, wow, I need to change. Uh and that's that's the kind of feedback because that sometimes you need to to to change because when you think that everything is going right, uh, and other people can see your potential, but maybe that potential is not going there in the right direction, you know. So so that for me was an example that really changed the way I see my life right now.

Troy Blaser 25:51

Yeah, and your career. It's that's a great piece of feedback because there's a compliment mixed into the feedback, right? You're a Ferrari, you're a fantastic person, you have a lot of horsepower and a lot of drive and speed and momentum, but it's not quite going in the right direction. That's the problem. So it it makes that feedback easier to receive if it comes with a compliment like that.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 26:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Troy Blaser 26:16

You've given us some great advice so far. Um, we've talked about some of those behaviors that managers should try to do less of or what they need to unlearn, those habits that they need to unlearn. Um, we've talked about some of those behaviors that are easy to underestimate as a leader in terms of the example that we set. Are there other bits of advice for our audience? You know, if there are HR professionals out there who are listening to this episode and thinking about the feedback that is given in their organization, um are is there specific advice that you would give to our listeners in terms of wellness leadership that maybe they could take away from this episode and and start to put into practice? Um not that you need to give away the secret sauce, but maybe a tip or two for our listeners.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 27:06

Yeah, for me, uh it's treat well-being as a secret weapon, you know what I mean? That if you take care of your well-being first, if you can't lead other people if you can, you know, can't lead lead yourself. Um sometimes leaders they they don't see the importance of maintaining that well-being, you know, in the long term to have this sustainable business results because your team is watching you all the time. Uh, want it or not, they are watching you, like they are listening to you, copying you. So that's that's very important that you start to keep well-being like a key capability, you know, to endure, to impact the business. Uh, because maybe in the past, you know, it wasn't so so important. But right now we are talking, we are having a lot of you know distractions, we are having technology all the time. We can be working all the time if you want at home, you know, it's like mobile. Uh you need to learn how to disconnect, how to sleep well, how to uh do the basics right for you, and then also for your team, because you need to do that things that we were talking about, the aligning expectation, give good feedback, recognize your team, you know, understand the psych- psychological safety. You need to do both things, first for you and then for your team, and treat well-being as this sweet secret weapon for you to endure and to impact in the long term.

Troy Blaser 28:37

I love that. I that idea of elevating well-being to a leadership capability, something to focus on, not something to sort of set aside and think, oh, it will take care of itself, but rather to make it important and not only for your employees, but for yourself and first for yourself to say, I have to look out for my own well-being in order to maintain this this uh long-term and to see long-term results.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 29:02

Yeah, and and an example here, Troy, that you know, I was I I travel a lot. Uh I was traveling to to you know, to give a workshop for the World Bank uh team. And uh I, you know, I I always, you know, I was speaking, I had a problem with my ear, so I have an ear infection. And I was trying to find like a chewing gum, you know, to before, you know, on the plane. And the person close to me, listening to me, asked, you know, uh that question. And she told no, I have one. So we were started talking, and and I asked, you know, what happened? Why why did you bring that? And she told me two years ago, she was uh uh you know as an secretary, and she told me I was working a lot, a lot, a lot, you know, but I wasn't listening like the the signals that I was working too much and feeling not good. And I was starting having problems, so she lost the the capacity to hear from you know from one side. Uh so she told that that example that sometimes if you don't listen to your body, you can suffer things like that. She she had to start and stop work um uh because of that. And then she added another story, it was more difficult. That she said that after that, you know, her husband uh he was traveling also in a in a in a business trip and he was starting to feel bad, but he didn't want to go to the hospital and he died after some days. So, you know, those are examples that maybe sometimes we think, oh, okay, well-being is not you know so important or so critical, but it can cause you your life, you know what I mean? Um there is not nothing more important than that. So we need to be conscious of the importance of well-being for our performance, but also for living more and to have the impact we want.

Troy Blaser 30:58

I I appreciate that. That's a that's a fantastic example of that idea of looking out for our well-being long term. It's it's been interesting and exciting to hear all the things that you've talked about. I wanted to ask, is there a project or a book that you're working on right now, something that we can be looking out for if we want to learn more and know more?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 31:19

So right now uh we are Marshall Goldsmith and I, we are writing uh a new book, so so it's it's coming soon.

Troy Blaser 31:27

Okay.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 31:27

So it's it's the book uh we would like to to read when we started our leadership career. So I think it's is we are trying to bring a lot of stories and a new methodology that we we hope can change uh the way leadership is done.

Troy Blaser 31:46

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, we can certainly be on the lookout for that. Kind of see what lessons you wish you had known when you started, and uh that we can then apply in our own work in the work that we're doing. That that's exciting. So I appreciate you sharing that. Apart from the book, if people want to know more, if they want to connect with you, how are you open to that? What should they do?

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 32:09

Yeah, for sure. You can find on my LinkedIn, find my name. So my answer name is the same. So so I'm really open to you know to contact to to connect and to learn from from everybody.

Troy Blaser 32:23

LinkedIn is the place to find you. I'm sure we can put a link in our show notes as well. Um, Julian, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation today. It's been interesting to think about the importance of well-being and and how the feedback that we give and receive in our in our employment, in our jobs, in our personal lives can have an effect on that well-being. So thank you for your time and and for the ideas that you brought today.

Julian Lorenzo Farrapeira 32:48

I appreciate your time and really enjoy our conversation, Troy. So thank you very much.