Transcript
Suzy Burke: 00:01
Our monsters are trying to protect us. Our ancestors were super attuned to danger in every form. So fast forward to today, our minds are mental time machines replaying the things that hurt us in the past so we can avoid repeating them in the future. So if you got laughed at for speaking up in class, you think about speaking up in a meeting, that same voice might say, don't. And when you step outside your comfort zone, that's when your monster pipes up. You know what, you're not ready. Don't risk it. You're gonna fail. But when you can face your inner critic with wonder instead of fear, it becomes your most insightful conversation partner.
Troy Blaser: 00:45
Hello and welcome to another edition of Simply Feedback, the podcast brought to you by Learning Bridge. I'm your host, Troy Blaser. It's great to be with you today, and I am excited to speak with our guest today. Our guest today is Dr. Suzy Burke, who is a co-author of the book Headamentals and a co-founder of Accountability Inc. With a PhD in social and organizational psychology from Colombia University and decades of executive and consulting experience, Suzy helps leaders understand how their internal narratives shape decision making, culture, and leadership effectiveness. Dr. Suzy Burke, welcome to Simply Feedback. It's great to have you with us today.
Suzy Burke: 01:27
It's so great to be here with you. I'm excited to talk about feedback and how Headamentals impacts that.
Troy Blaser: 01:33
Yeah. And today, you know, we're kind of exploring feedback from a slightly different angle. We often think about feedback as something that other people give us, and that's true often. But really, your work, Suzy, suggests that that one of the most important forms of feedback is actually the conversation happening inside our own heads, our self-talk. Now, before we get in too much into Headamentals and the self-talk, I want to start with a question that we ask of all of our guests who come on. It helps us get to know you a little bit better and kind of kicks things off, kicks off the conversation. That question is: I wonder, could you tell us about a time that somebody gave you feedback? Maybe it was feedback that had an impact on your life or your professional career, but was meaningful feedback for you. We'd be interested to know.
Suzy Burke: 02:18
It's an interesting question. I was newly minted executive at a Fortune 20 company, and an HR director who I liked very much came to me one day and he said, you know, if you want to be successful here, I'm going to give you two pieces of advice. You have to be Suzanne instead of Suzy. You got to change that laugh. And I thought about it and I thought to myself, you know what? If that's what it takes to succeed here, I'm not going to do it. And it taught me that what matters most to me is how I feel about myself rather than how other people want me to show up.
Troy Blaser: 02:50
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 02:50
And it was a risky lesson, but I actually did really well there.
Troy Blaser: 02:54
Even with Suzy, not Suzanne.
Suzy Burke: 02:57
And I love to laugh. It just it happens naturally. And I think it's helpful to relationships to have some lightness in them.
Troy Blaser: 03:05
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that, you know, everybody has their own unique way of working. And like you said, you have to be true to yourself first. Otherwise, it's it's not going to work at all.
Suzy Burke: 03:16
Right.
Troy Blaser: 03:16
That's very interesting feedback. And it, well, the lesson you took away was not the feedback that was given, right?
Suzy Burke: 03:23
Right.
Troy Blaser: 03:24
But you took that and internalized it and said, what does that mean for me? And I think that's absolutely important for everyone to be in control of the feedback that they received.
Suzy Burke: 03:33
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Troy Blaser: 03:35
Rather than letting letting someone else dictate to you.
Suzy Burke: 03:37
And the person who gave you that feedback, we were friends for years and actually recently died, but we're friends until he died.
Troy Blaser: 03:42
Oh, see.
Suzy Burke: 03:43
It didn't impact the relationship at all. He was trying to help me.
Troy Blaser: 03:46
He probably appreciated Suzy and the laughter over time. You know?
Suzy Burke: 03:50
Exactly. Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 03:53
Well, like I mentioned a minute ago, um, your book, Headamentals, focuses on the power of self-talk. Tell me a little bit, what led you and your co-authors to see those internal conversations that we have with ourselves as such an important uh leadership issue?
Suzy Burke: 04:09
We're all executive coaches and consultants. And over the years, as we worked with people, we realized that people can't bring their best selves to their work because they're always criticizing themselves. We all have an inner critic. And as Ryan and Rhett and I started talking about it, we realized that, gosh, if we could help people recognize that this is happening and how to turn that inner critic into a support system rather than a something that you're afraid of, it could really make a difference. So I think, you know, almost every client I work with has an issue with executive presence, which is really not having the courage to be who you can be, not not being not wanting to speak up in a meeting, not being willing to take on a project that's outside your sphere of excellence. And when you can defeat, not defeat because it's impossible, you can manage your your inner critic and when that's positive, it can make all the difference in the world.
Troy Blaser: 05:00
Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, like I said, we usually talk about feedback as something that we're we're receiving from somebody else. And and you highlight that we're we're giving ourselves feedback throughout the day through that self-talk. How should we think about that internal feedback loop? Is it something we should be aware of, focused on, try to ignore?
Suzy Burke: 05:23
Well, you know, I think conventionalism casts your inner critic as a bully, something to ignore or suppress or even crush. That's not possible. And we've come to realize that our monsters are trying to protect us, not destroy us. And it comes, it's in our DNA. I mean, thousands of years ago, survival depended on one thing, it's called speed. If you didn't react in a nanosecond, the danger lurking everywhere, you wouldn't survive to pass on your genes to the next generation. So our ancestors were super attuned to danger in every form. So fast forward to today,
Troy Blaser: 05:58
yeah,
Suzy Burke: 05:58
our minds are mental time machines replaying the things that hurt us in the past so we can avoid repeating them in the future. So if you got laughed at for speaking up in class, you think about speaking up in a meeting, that same voice might say, don't. And when you step outside your comfort zone, that's when your monster pipes up. You know what, you're not ready. Don't risk it. You're gonna fail. But when you can face your inner critic with wonder instead of fear, it becomes your most insightful conversation partner. It's try, it's you know, ask it, interrogate what's what's the fear here?
Troy Blaser: 06:33
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 06:34
Is it all tape on replay? Or is or is there something actually that I need to pay attention to? And usually it's just all tape on replay.
Troy Blaser: 06:40
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 06:42
Most of our inner critic messages come from when we were kids. Friends, family, teachers, bosses, people that loved us. It would make an offhand comment that somehow you would internalize.
Troy Blaser: 06:52
Yeah. Thinking back to that story you shared about the feedback that you received, and then you sort of internalize it and thought about it in a different way. How how does the self-talk, how does our self-talk shape the way that we receive feedback from others?
Suzy Burke: 07:11
As humans, we're inclined to see danger every place just because it's hardwired in our DNA. Um if you can learn to we've got a 3C method, you know what when you have a negative message when you're telling yourself like someone gives you feedback and you say, Oh, they're trying to hurt me, or that's you know, that that's wrong, or it's not it's not they're not being helpful. Catch it when it's happening. And then you confront it, where's it coming from? What's the truth? And then you reframe that message to something more positive, more courageous, more more real. But your your emotions trigger you to recognize that something's happening. When you're feeling our emotions react to to danger quicker than our minds do. So for me, it's my stomach. When my stomach gets tight, I think, okay, there's something going on here. I have to figure out what it is. Let's take one step back and say, wait a minute. What's that? What's the source of that message? Is it true today, or was it just true when I was 12, you know?
Troy Blaser: 08:13
You've mentioned a couple of times the monster, and we've talked about self-feedback a little bit or that inner bully. Can you just clarify for our listeners, maybe who are unfamiliar, um, what do you mean by monster and and kind of how does that show up, you know, as we're leading and leading teams or working in a in a professional environment?
Suzy Burke: 08:33
We named our inner critic, so it's your inner critic, right? We named it the monster. And it came, I was coaching a woman, um, and she said to me, you know, I've got this monster in my mind. And I thought to myself, oh my God, that's that's the analog, that's the metaphor, right?
Troy Blaser: 08:46
That's the concept, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 08:47
And our because people relate to monsters, and our our our inner critics, our monsters are the ones always looking for something that might harm us based on things that happened a million years ago. And when you can question your monster and say, wait a minute, does that still apply to me today? Or I mean I keep saying the same thing. Is it an old tape on replay?
Troy Blaser: 09:08
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 09:09
You know, when you have this fear that there's a monster under your bed and you get down to the floor, it's like a dust bunny, right? And when you interrogate those fears, you discover most of them just evaporate. The the counterpart to the monster is the maverick.
Troy Blaser: 09:20
Okay.
Suzy Burke: 09:21
But the the voice inside your head that says, you know what? You are good enough, you are smart enough, you are strong enough. Look at all the great things you've done. And one of the things we talk about in the book is, and this is from a colleague of mine, Joelle Crawford, she encourages people to create a DIG folder. It stands for damn, I'm good. When you have get some positive feedback, just drop it in your dig folder, put it on your phone. And when you're worried about yourself, about you know, are am I good enough? Am I up to this challenge? Just look in your dig folder. You'll see all the great things you've done and all the positive feedback you've received. It reminds you that your monster is just trying to keep you safe. You don't need to pay attention.
Troy Blaser: 09:56
Yeah. I that was one of the concepts that I really liked as I read through the book was the idea of the dig folder. And for me, what I realized was that it's been a while since I've taken time to reflect on the successes, to think about what I've done that's good. And not only for for myself, but with my team, right? To stop and take stock.
Suzy Burke: 10:16
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser: 10:17
What have we done in the last year that um is a success for us, for the for the team, you know, um, to kind of remind us and and get that switch from monster over to maverick. Um, you talked about the three C's and that idea of for you, it's in when it's when you feel that tightness in your stomach is sort of that trigger that says, okay, hold on a second. Monster's trying to say something.
Suzy Burke: 10:40
Exactly, exactly.
Troy Blaser: 10:42
Let's give it a little bit of time to to move from my amygdala up into the the prefrontal cortex of my brain.
Suzy Burke: 10:48
Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 10:49
I can really process that and give give my maverick a chance to show up and say something a little bit more useful than whatever it is the monster's telling me.
Suzy Burke: 10:57
Troy, You've got it exactly right. You're exactly right.
Troy Blaser: 11:01
Um so as I think about a time, you know, somebody maybe is receiving some difficult feedback, the kind of thing that might trigger that monster to pipe up. How can they, the person receiving that feedback, how can they tell the difference between the feedback itself and whatever it is their monster is telling them about that feedback?
Suzy Burke: 11:21
That's a really interesting question. I would encourage that person to um, first of all, take some time, you know, step away, yeah, um, do whatever is that makes them relax, whether it's going for a swim or a walk in the woods or someplace where they can get sort of grounded and settled. And then look for the nuggets and the feedback that they've received.
Troy Blaser: 11:41
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 11:41
Because probably the person's trying to give them, like Ed was trying to help me, right?
Troy Blaser: 11:45
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 11:46
He was trying to make me more effective. He wasn't trying to hurt me. And often when I get, I mean, I love feedback uh because I feel like it's the way that I can grow and improve as a leader. So when someone says to me, you know what, it wouldn't be better if you'd done it this way, like, tell me more about that. Because I'm interested. So to look for the gems inside the feedback that you're getting and tell your monster to like take a break. But I find that if you can do it when you're relaxed, when you can breathe, you can actually receive it the way it was meant and not as an attack.
Troy Blaser: 12:18
I really like that. It's like that you you hear that piece of difficult feedback and your monster comes roaring in, trying to shout out whatever the feedback is. It's like, okay, if I give it some time, my monster is gonna kind of wear himself out and get a little softer in volume, and then I can come back to the feedback itself and and mine those nuggets from a place of curiosity rather than a place of fear or um, you know, whatever it is. Are there common ways that that the monster that self-talk shows up uh as you've worked with different clients? Do you see patterns in the way that that monster shows up?
Suzy Burke: 12:56
It's crazy as it sounds, it's typically things from childhood. You know, what from when you were because when you're young, you can't process these things very well. You don't have the the mental maturity that experience to understand where things are coming from. And so often um it's messages that people heard as kids. Whether it's from a parent, I mean, I'm coaching uh a person right now who had a really difficult upbringing. And when when things are diff— when things are hard, he goes back to that little boy who's afraid, right? Who's trying to defend himself and and keep himself safe.
Troy Blaser: 13:33
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 13:34
Rather than the 50-year-old executive running a big company.
Troy Blaser: 13:38
Yeah. One of the one of the concepts you pointed out, a lot of times that monster comes in with um imposter syndrome kinds of self-talk. You know, you're not good enough to be doing this.
Suzy Burke: 13:49
Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 13:50
Who are you? How are you qualified to be doing this job?
Suzy Burke: 13:53
Yep.
Troy Blaser: 13:53
And to lead this team. And maybe that's related back to experiences in childhood. Um, I don't know, but I I know that it's something that a lot of people deal with, that idea of am I the person to be doing this? Isn't there somebody better than me?
Suzy Burke: 14:08
Well, you know, 70% of the people at some point have that self-doubt. And since I wrote that part of the book, um, I've realized that imposter syndrome is the wrong name for it. Because syndrome implies something that just is.
Troy Blaser: 14:22
Sure.
Suzy Burke: 14:23
A better term for it is imposter phenomenon. Because it comes and goes depending upon the circumstances. So, you know, in the book we talk about um Albert Einstein, the guy who changed how we think about the world, the science.
Troy Blaser: 14:37
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 14:37
He described himself as an involuntary swindler.
Troy Blaser: 14:42
Interesting.
Suzy Burke: 14:43
Meryl Streep, who has so many Academy Awards and SAG Awards and Emmys and so on, she talks that when she goes on the stage, she's waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Troy Blaser: 14:51
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 14:52
Sonia Sotomayor, the you know, an amazing Supreme Court justice, thought, when are they going to discover me? Oprah, one of the most successful people in the world. So that every time she walked in a room, she thought to herself, oh my god, I don't belong here. When she until she finally realized that I'm in this room because I do belong. And the bigger the room, the more you're likely to be nervous and anxious and think you don't belong.
Troy Blaser: 15:12
Sure.
Suzy Burke: 15:13
Um, but when you can make that switch and say, time out, and this is what I coach my clients of you've got to seat at the table for a reason. Use your voice.
Troy Blaser: 15:22
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 15:23
Use your voice. Because you're promoted, because people trust what you have to say. They want your input, they want your thoughts. Don't hold back.
Troy Blaser: 15:30
Believe the practical experience of what has happened rather than what you think should be.
Suzy Burke: 15:35
Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 15:36
And that is that you have been successful. You— People have appreciated the work that you've done. And and so you can trust in that because it it actually happened that way.
Suzy Burke: 15:46
Exactly. And and there's no downside in trusting, right?
Troy Blaser: 15:50
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 15:51
There's no downside.
Troy Blaser: 15:52
So when we're giving ourselves feedback, when the monster is speaking to us, you I think you kind of alluded to uh the three C's method as a way to sort of turn the volume down on the monster and give give that maverick voice a chance to pipe up. Can you talk about the three C's for just a minute and explain to our listeners what those are?
Suzy Burke: 16:10
Sure.
Troy Blaser: 16:11
As a as a way to sort of interrupt that monster pattern.
Suzy Burke: 16:15
Well, first of all, I'd like to say it's not our idea.
Troy Blaser: 16:18
Okay, sure.
Suzy Burke: 16:19
It's based on cognitive behavioral therapy. Okay. Aaron Beck from the 60s. It's one of the most well-regarded interventions for mental challenges, right? Um Aaron Beck was a psychiatrist, and he he created this process. His basic tenet is how you think about something impacts how you feel about it, and that shapes how you act.
Troy Blaser: 16:41
Okay.
Suzy Burke: 16:41
So it's a triangle. How you think about something shapes how you feel about it, which in turn shapes how you act. So if, you know, again, our emotions are stronger than our thinking initially, because it's a survival mechanism. So things come into your brain from the brainstem, which is at the base of your skull, they go through the amygdala, which process the emotions, right?
Troy Blaser: 17:02
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 17:03
And then they have to get out of there and go to the cortex where you can be logical about them. So when you feel something, when you feel that sense of my monster's talking to me, telling me that I'm not whatever enough, fill in the blank. You have to catch it first. To catch when if you don't catch it, then nothing else happens, right? You've got to recognize that that moment when it's happening.
Troy Blaser: 17:24
So that's the first C is to catch it.
Suzy Burke: 17:26
It's the first C is to catch it. The second C is to confront it. Say, wait a minute, what's the truth in this? Is there is it really a description of what's happening to me right now? Or is that left over from when that boy was so mean to me in seventh grade?
Troy Blaser: 17:44
Yeah, is it a replay, is it replaying an old tape?
Suzy Burke: 17:47
Exactly, exactly. And actually, I let me tell you about when I first monster first came into my life, if I may, and then we'll talk about the third C.
Troy Blaser: 17:54
Sure, sure, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 17:55
I was 11. My sister was 18, and she did a lot of mean things to me, but this is the meanest thing of all. Um, she told me that her her good friend Doug wanted to take me to the movies.
Troy Blaser: 18:07
Okay.
Suzy Burke: 18:07
I'm like 11. I'm so I've never been on a date with anyone.
Troy Blaser: 18:10
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 18:11
But I had to promise not to tell a soul. So I fretted all week about how much of my allowance money I should bring. What would I say to Doug? Doug was very cute. How will I ever get through this? But I was so excited. Because I'm on a date, right?
Troy Blaser: 18:23
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 18:24
Um, he was going to pick me up at six o'clock on Sunday. I was started sitting by the front door at like 5:45,
Troy Blaser: 18:30
uh-huh.
Suzy Burke: 18:31
5:50, 6 o'clock, 6:10, 6:20.
Troy Blaser: 18:36
Oh.
Suzy Burke: 18:36
It's all a big joke. But that's the first time that I thought, oh my gosh, I am not enough. I am not enough. And that has that led me to date some awful awful boys and men. Because I just didn't think I was worthy of someone who was wonderful. Oh so the second C is to confront it. Is that is that me sitting in the front hall waiting for Doug to come?
Troy Blaser: 19:00
Right.
Suzy Burke: 19:01
Or is that really what's happening today?
Troy Blaser: 19:03
Today. Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 19:05
And then the third C is to change it. Reframe that message with something more accurate, more reliable, more, more true. Catch it when it's happening, confront it to see if it's valid, and then change it if it's not. Yeah. Reframe that message you're telling yourself. Because you know, I am not 11 years old anymore.
Troy Blaser: 19:24
Are there are there common ways or patterns we can use to try to change that message to reframe it? Are there tricks or tips? Or does it is it really dependent on the specific message that we're receiving from our self-talk, from our monster?
Suzy Burke: 19:40
I I think it depends upon the message. Um the the challenge is to, you know, this is where the dig folder comes in handy, right?
Troy Blaser: 19:47
Yeah, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 19:48
Stop and say, wait a minute, I let that off site last week and they it was great. I got five-star reviews, right? Or um I just got my employee satisfaction survey back, and my team loves me.
Troy Blaser: 19:58
Yeah, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 19:59
Or I just got a promotion. Think about all the things, all the positive reinforcement you're getting. It says that monster is just full of full of baloney, malarkey, whatever you want to call it.
Troy Blaser: 20:10
Yeah. Or, or even the reframing might be, oh, yes, this is really related to something that's passed. It's not happening right now. And that that enough is, or that alone is enough to reframe and and help me realize this is not something, this is not a current threat. This is really a a previous threat or a previous experience that's kind of replaying in my in my own self-talk.
Suzy Burke: 20:34
But if it is, if it's a real threat, if it's a real issue, then you've got to step back and say, okay, this is this is a challenge for me. Let's use all my resources to figure out how I can do better, right?
Troy Blaser: 20:44
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 20:45
Because not every monster message is fake. Some of them are real.
Troy Blaser: 20:49
Okay. Yeah. But but then, like you say, you take that step back, give my maverick a chance to pipe in to weigh in with some clearer thinking that's not necessarily based on the emotions of the moment or the perceived threat. But okay, this is a real um potential threat or an opportunity. What are some constructive ways that I can approach that?
Suzy Burke: 21:13
Exactly. Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 21:15
I like that. So your book is split into different parts, and and the first part of the book talked a lot about self-talk and the internal conversations that we're having with ourselves, and then it pivoted to sort of this team talk. Obviously, a lot of the book is intended for leaders to read and help them think not only about themselves, but then how am I leading my team, whatever size team that might be, as we pivot from just our own individual talk and our self talk? How does a leader's internal narrative influence the kind of feedback environment that they create for their team?
Suzy Burke: 21:51
Because it really does.
Troy Blaser: 21:53
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 21:53
Self talk leaks. Period, full stop. It's called emotional contagion. So if If I'm feeling nervous and anxious and I walk into a meeting without even a moment passing, people feel that. They start to think, okay, there's some danger here. I'm not gonna, I had an idea that I wanted to share, I'm not gonna do it.
Troy Blaser: 22:14
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 22:15
They they pull back, um, they hesitate. If I walk in feeling calm and energized, they're gonna share their innovative ideas, right?
Troy Blaser: 22:25
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 22:26
Because the leader's self-talk is louder than anyone else's. People look to the leader to see what's actually happened, what are the messages, what's going on right now. And particularly in these times where everything is so uncertain, and there are threats coming from every place right now. So people are really nervous and anxious and looking for looking for a reason to believe that we're gonna be okay.
Troy Blaser: 22:49
That makes a lot of sense.
Suzy Burke: 22:51
You have to walk into that meeting saying, You know what? You've got challenges, here's what they are. Let's talk about how we can face those challenges in a positive way. Versus, you know what, all hell is breaking loose. Run for the bunkers.
Troy Blaser: 23:04
Run for the bunkers, everybody.
Suzy Burke: 23:06
Yeah.
Troy Blaser: 23:07
Have you seen situations in your experience as a coach working with clients where where a leader's self-talk, uh for good or for bad, has influenced the team and shaped the culture and the behavior of the team?
Suzy Burke: 23:20
Everyone I work with is true. I mean, this is not particular to one person, self-talk leaks period full stop.
Troy Blaser: 23:25
It's true.
Suzy Burke: 23:26
Because again, because of our how we're wired, we're always on the lookout for for what I have to be wary of, right?
Troy Blaser: 23:33
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 23:33
And because the leader is seen as a source of knowledge of safety, we look to the leader for that kind of messaging. We read, we read body language really well, we uh interpret tone of voice, and certainly the words as well.
Troy Blaser: 23:47
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 23:48
So however a leader shows up is is gonna have a huge impact on the organization. Um you know, I'm working with a a leader right now who's um just doing an amazing job. But, his team was in turmoil before he took over. And he's come in and said, you know what, we've got a lot of things that we've got to work on, but let's get started. This let's share ideas, it's gonna be great. And he's energetic and excited and listening to them and drawing out their input and insights, and they're thriving. And he's also made it clear that if they make a mistake, it's okay so long as they learn. So they don't have to be afraid to take action, right?
Troy Blaser: 24:26
That's important, right? Creating that that safe environment to to be make a mistake, but even that psychological safety to pipe up with
Suzy Burke: 24:35
Absolutely, yep.
Troy Blaser: 24:36
there's an idea that I have, and I know that I'm not gonna get laughed out of the room, or
Suzy Burke: 24:39
exactly,
Troy Blaser: 24:40
you know, but they're gonna treat my ideas with respect.
Suzy Burke: 24:43
Yep.
Troy Blaser: 24:44
Have you had a chance to work with a leader who's kind of made a turnaround? Maybe as you started the engagement with that leader, there was some some that monster was speaking up quite a lot with some imposter syndrome or some other kinds of negative self-talk that were poisoning the rest of the team. And then you had a chance to help that leader kind of make a change to their own internal conversations that then affected the team.
Suzy Burke: 25:07
Sure, absolutely. And I'm thinking about um one person in particular, um, it's a woman, and she um her boss was very critical of her, and she started to internalize that. And when I got to do 360 and talk with her team, um, they told me all the great things about her and how much they loved to work with her and so on and so forth. Um, that gave her the confidence to shut out the real monster that was her boss,
Troy Blaser: 25:34
yeah, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 25:35
That was really trying to tear her down for a reason that I don't understand. Um and help her team bring out bring her positive self into the room, help her team do the same.
Troy Blaser: 25:48
Oh, that's cool. That I mean, yeah, we don't even know what kind of monsters were were were talking in the boss's head.
Suzy Burke: 25:55
Exactly. Exactly.
Troy Blaser: 25:56
Clearly, that was having an effect on her, and she was able to realize that and sort of take some steps to tune tune the negativity out from that she was getting from her boss. And and you're saying that had a very positive effect on the rest of her team, who knew that she was could be a great leader. They they were happy to work with her, but it was this change in in her internal conversations that allowed the whole rest of the team to feel that positivity better.
Suzy Burke: 26:23
Exactly, exactly.
Troy Blaser: 26:25
Well, that's that's fantastic, and I think it's such a useful reminder to us to be aware of the self-feedback that we're giving to ourselves every day as we sit down at our jobs, our personal lives, to be aware of that conversation and as as we've talked about, then if needed, to catch it, confront it, and reframe it or change it as needed.
Suzy Burke: 26:48
You know, I taught sixth grade for five years. Um, and I loved it, it was great, great fun. But one day, um was it rainy day or something, and the kids were having lunch in the classroom instead of in the lunchroom. And I stepped out for half an hour to do something, I came back in, and someone was up at the board being me. And I was so shocked at how perfectly they had my my my gestures, the tone of my voice. It was they had mastered me. I'm like, oh my gosh, how could that happen?
Troy Blaser: 27:18
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 27:18
People are so attentive to the leader. And you may not think that they're paying attention, they are absolutely paying attention to the to the nth degree.
Troy Blaser: 27:30
You know, my wife actually taught sixth grade uh for three years, and I was amazed at the kind of influence that that a sixth grade teacher can have on so many students that come, you know, new students every year.
Suzy Burke: 27:43
Yep.
Troy Blaser: 27:44
And and it's a lifelong influence as a teacher. And and I'm sure those students in that class probably, some of them, think back to the day that that we uh, you know, did our impression of Miss Burke in class. Um and if not that specifically, at least certainly remember you and the influence that you had on their lives.
Suzy Burke: 28:04
Sure, because I remember my sixth grade teacher.
Troy Blaser: 28:07
Right.
Suzy Burke: 28:07
Mr. Papageorge, who was awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. And ironically, I had his daughter in my sixth grade class, which was such a joy.
Troy Blaser: 28:15
Oh, is that right?
Suzy Burke: 28:16
Yeah, such a joy.
Troy Blaser: 28:18
You know, Suzy, you mentioned with this um client of yours that kind of had the negative boss um that you you did a 360 survey. Right. You know, here at Learning Bridge, 360s are kind of our our bread and butter. Um, that's what we've done for a lot of years. I'm curious, how did the 360 influence your engagement and your work with this client? Was there particular value in the 360?
Suzy Burke: 28:42
I find 360 to be the best tool I have in my toolkit. Um, I talk to probably 10 to 12 of their stakeholders they choose.
Troy Blaser: 28:52
Uh-huh.
Suzy Burke: 28:53
Uh, I ask five questions. What does so-and-so do well? What do they need to improve? What situations bring out the first in this person? What situations bring out the worst in this person? And what else do you want me to know?
Troy Blaser: 29:03
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 29:04
And based on that, um, I get just really, I mean, I always ask for examples and you know, give me talk to me about, you know, just not word answers, but story answers. And then I synthesize that into a uh 360 seminar report. And I and I share always starting with the what they do well, right? Um, and then opportunities for improvement. And typically, um it's a it's often a really good balance of of strengths and then some opportunities to improve it. And my clients generally recognize their their opportunities for improvement, right? We turned that into a development plan, which I'm sure you guys do the same thing.
Troy Blaser: 29:43
Yeah, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 29:45
But it's so much better than a like a paper and pencil, you know, liquor type scale. Um, how does so-and-so do on this or that? Because they're rich stories.
Troy Blaser: 29:54
Yeah.
Suzy Burke: 29:55
And it there's a lot of texture in it. I love 360s. I love them.
Troy Blaser: 29:59
That open-ended feedback is so valuable.
Suzy Burke: 30:01
Absolutely, absolutely.
Troy Blaser: 30:02
And and like you say, if you're gathering examples and and you're, I realize you're sort of creating a little dig folder that's unique to that uh survey when you ask what do they do well, and then you can come and present the report. And we're gonna start with the things you're good at, right?
Suzy Burke: 30:17
The other thing I do that that I think is pretty powerful is I take the things that they're good at, and I turn to a wallet size card and laminate it, the staples, and I give that to the leader to put it in their wallet. So if they're ever feeling down, they can just pull out their wallet card.
Troy Blaser: 30:31
Nice.
Suzy Burke: 30:31
And see all the great things that their people said about them.
Troy Blaser: 30:34
I love that. Well, you know, we're we're getting to the end of our time, and I've I've really appreciated chatting with you a little bit. Thinking about our audience uh and our listeners as leaders, coaches, talent development professionals, are there one or two simple tips or things that um you can share with us to help folks become more aware of the feedback that they're giving themselves? I guess that "catch" moment. Right. Are there some things that we can do to become more aware of that self-talk that's happening?
Suzy Burke: 31:06
Pay attention to your emotions. Look for your emotions, what they're telling you. Because that's the first thing that reacts when something is going awry. So be attuned to that and try to figure out what it's telling you, what you're what you're shoulder tightening or lumping your throat, however it shows up for you. What is what's alerting you to? It's alerting you to some sort of perceived danger. It's probably not dangerous at all.
Troy Blaser: 31:32
That makes sense. Pay more attention to our emotions. That will be a particular challenge for me. Um, as I tend to focus on the logic, I tend to focus. I in my in my day job, I I write code for Learning Bridge.
Suzy Burke: 31:46
Oh, wow. Okay.
Troy Blaser: 31:46
Kind of manage the technical side of things. And so I need to, I need to take a moment. Maybe that's a sign on my desk or a post-it note or something that says, hey, what are your emotions right now?
Suzy Burke: 31:56
Right.
Troy Blaser: 31:56
So so that's a fantastic tip. I appreciate that.
Suzy Burke: 32:00
The thing is, I mean, all this stuff is it's really it's simple. Not easy, but it is simple. The ideas are simple.
Troy Blaser: 32:05
Yeah, yeah.
Suzy Burke: 32:06
Leaning into it is not so easy.
Troy Blaser: 32:09
I I can appreciate that. Suzy, if if people want to learn more about you, or obviously about Headamentals, they can go buy the book. It's available on Amazon or anywhere books are sold. But are you open to continuing the conversation? What would you suggest uh in terms of if folks want to get in touch with you? How can they do that?
Suzy Burke: 32:28
Uh Suzy @SuzyBurkePhD.
Troy Blaser: 32:31
Awesome. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for this conversation today. I've really enjoyed it. I enjoy I enjoyed reading the book, and I've got some new things from for me to work on, but I'm glad we could chat about it for a little while, and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Suzy.
Suzy Burke: 32:45
This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm really delighted at how much you internalize the book and you had great, great questions. So thank you so much. I'm really grateful.
