Transcript
Michelle Thackray (00:00):
It really is the responsibility of the organization to create an environment where they have embedded in their structures and their processes, these continual opportunities for feedback loops. And not only that, they, they create those opportunities, but then that the folks who are receiving that information are actually utilizing it and then providing information to the sender of the feedback that they have leveraged it, and that they have taken advantage of it. And so there are so many easy ways that you can do that anytime that you have a business process really so easy to get some quick information out there for people to be able to do pulse check, to let you know what's going well, what could be better, what are some of the pain points I'm experiencing. And I think when you're focusing it too on the process, rather than the person from an organizational standpoint that's sending a clear message that like, we want to be better, we want to keep working and fine tuning these things, and focusing first on process. When you're trying to build and lean into that culture around psychological safety and providing feedback to individuals about their performance, that can be a really good way to kind of softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (01:11):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast brought to you by Learning Bridge. I'm your host, Troy Blaser. I'm really excited about our conversation today and for the chance to introduce our guest, Dr. Michelle Thackray. Currently, Michelle is the Associate Vice President of Operational Excellence and Engagement at Rice University. And previously she was director of strategy and assessment at Georgia Tech. Michelle has led transformative initiatives and fostered a culture of continuous improvement at all the places where she has worked with a PhD in industrial and organizational psychology. Michelle's professional journey is marked by significant contributions to operational strategy and human resources. She's also a certified change management practitioner. So I'm excited for our conversation today. We can start to learn about some of Michelle's plans for a new leadership development program that she's working on. So, Michelle Thackray, welcome to Simply Feedback. It's great to have you with us today.
Michelle Thackray (02:14):
Troy, thank you so much. I'm, I'm really excited to dive in.
Troy Blaser (02:17):
Maybe just to help us get to know you a little bit better, I wonder if you could tell us about a time that somebody gave you feedback, maybe it was feedback that marked a turning point in your career, or it had a significant impact on your life. Is there a story that you could share with us?
Michelle Thackray (02:32):
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. I've been really fortunate throughout both my academic and professional career to have some really great mentors who've been really generous with their time and their energy and have received quite a bit of feedback along the way. One of those is actually from my undergraduate program. I went to Coastal Carolina University where my advisor was Dr. Linda Palm in the psychology department. And I took, took a couple of classes with her early on and it was in the midst of the statistics class, the first level of the stats class, which I was actually really nervous about. I've never been that strong in math that's always been an area of weakness for me. And I had a lot of anxiety about the class. And after I would say maybe like a month, a month and a half, I started to interact more and more with Dr. Palm.
Michelle Thackray (03:24):
And I had explained to her my mathematical anxiety and how it hasn't really been coming through so much in stats. And that stats really unlocked a new way of thinking about numbers for me. And over time we started doing some research together and she had shared that you actually have this really great aptitude for statistics and I know that you're thinking about going into forensic psychology and, and that's great and definitely encourage you to continue doing that. But I think that you should look into this field called industrial organizational psychology, this budding area within the psychology field. And it has a really bright outlook from a career standpoint. And those who do well with statistics tend to fare really well, uh, in that particular type of program and, and field of study. So I started doing some digging into it and I really liked what I was reading and ended up starting to take some business classes then as a result, to try to start preparing me for kind of switching trajectories in terms of my career and ended up only applying to graduate programs within io. And it really shifted the entire roadmap of my career from a very simple bit of feedback where somebody recognized something in me that maybe I didn't quite recognize in myself and used their expertise to give me this moment of reflection and this opportunity to do some digging and soul searching. And I am forever grateful for Dr. Palm, both from just her general advisement, but also for really setting up my career in a way that I, I would not have anticipated prior to stumbling into her class.
Troy Blaser (05:10):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, talk about a turning point in a career, right? A a whole entirely different road that Right. That she put you on. That's, that's fantastic. And I would imagine that industrial and organizational psychology is not something that maybe you had ever heard about before coming to college. You, you don't hear that, you know, as a child and think, that's what I want to go into.
Michelle Thackray (05:31):
That's right. That's absolutely right. And even, you know, in most undergraduate psych programs, at least at the time, it might be a bit different now since it's a more popular field, but even then you couldn't even really take like a concentration course in it like you could with some of the other psych areas. So I think that really without that guidance and that mentorship and that feedback, the doors to that world would've never been opened for me. It was a really rare instance of feedback that has stuck with me for all these years.
Troy Blaser (06:00):
And you've continued in your career so far, continuing to work with universities, with Georgia Tech, with Rice University. So you're still now able to have an influence on some of those undergraduates, maybe in an indirect way who are making all those kinds of same career choices. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (06:16):
Yeah, that's right. And what's really cool too is even though I'm on the administrative side of higher education, we often try to develop robust intern programs so that we can plug students into really meaningful experiences where, you know, a little bit different and give them an opportunity to see what a career might be like in HR or in finance or in IT. So we try to cultivate those experiences for our students to have this additional benefit on their resume when they go out into the real world, quote on quote. But yeah, it's, it's the best part I think about higher education is you get to have these great interactions with these incredibly brilliant students. I always say that like nothing ever makes me feel as much of a loser as I do when I'm sitting there interviewing students for these intern programs 'cause they're so accomplished. And I'm like, man, I was not doing that at this age, but good for y'all.
Troy Blaser (07:09):
Well, and then you start to realize bit by bit that you're no longer that same age either, right?
Michelle Thackray (07:14):
That's right. Yeah. That's another harsh reality.
Troy Blaser (07:17):
Cool factor that slowly ebbs away the farther you get from being an undergraduate
Michelle Thackray (07:21):
That's right.
Troy Blaser (07:23):
Well, it's interesting because it, I have a daughter who's graduating from Utah Valley University here in a couple of weeks.
Michelle Thackray (07:29):
Oh, congratulations.
Troy Blaser (07:31):
Oh, thanks. We're really excited. But she talks about her mentor, she's graduating in humanities and had a, a professor that was a mentor to her over the last couple of years. And I know her by her first name. And just from hearing my daughter talk about this mentor. So there's no question that those kinds of people really matter and make a big difference in the lives of the people that they are able to mentor. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (07:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Troy Blaser (07:57):
So you're now working at Rice University and I understand that you're working on a project creating a new leadership development program that you've submitted for funding. And I'd love to hear more about that. Can you tell us a little bit about that coming into Rice? Did you take the job with that in mind? Is it something that is new since you arrived? Or just give us some details there.
Michelle Thackray (08:20):
Yeah, so Rice is this fantastic place to be and I am so fortunate to have stumbled into it when it's at this really interesting moment in time. So we've got brand new leadership across the entire university really, and with that there's a lot of new energy and exciting ideas. What we're trying to really focus on within the division that I work in is this concept of a cultural transformation. So we actually just published our strategic plan within the last month and a half or so, and that strategic plan has outlined some critical goals and objectives that we're really trying to accomplish over the next five years. And it's really rooted around these concepts of operational excellence, customer experience, and community of care. And I think there's this really interesting notion about wanting to develop the talent that we have internally at all levels. And one of the areas that I have been focusing on over the last year or so has really been in the leadership space.
Michelle Thackray (09:27):
It's an area that I'm familiar with and I've got some experience with, and it's an area that I have a lot of passion in. And we just came up on our budget cycle. And what I like to do within my unit is really to pitch ideas that we can foster as these pilot programs essentially. And we can create these programs, we can build them up, pilot them very quickly, try to uncover some of the obstacles in order to streamline them, make them more efficient, and then ideally collaborate with others across the university so that we can then transition those programs to another department and then we can continue to go through and pilot other programs. And so that's kind of where I'm heading with this leadership development program that I would really like to start to foster this concept about leadership feedback, really getting folks used to this concept that feedback is an asset and we should be treating it as such.
Michelle Thackray (10:25):
And we should be, you know, really leaning into these opportunities when we can get feedback from those around us from all different spheres of influence. And that's really what this program is about. So the idea being to formalize a competency model for Rce, and then to develop a 360 leadership assessment through those competencies and get a systematic program in place so that we can cycle through our leaders at various intervals. They can receive this feedback, hopefully align it with that feedback with strategy for either their individual units or perhaps even their divisions. And then start to really build that culture around openness to feedback, receptivity to feedback that good psychological trust that we know is necessary in order to create a successful program of that nature. And so that's really where what I've just proposed recently and where I'm hoping to kick off this program.
Troy Blaser (11:23):
Yeah. Depending on the current culture, it can be a challenge to create this culture of feedback. Are there things that you're doing to try to begin to make that change or move towards that idea of valuing feedback in the organization?
Michelle Thackray (11:37):
Yeah, I think there are a couple of different things that you can really do in order to create that type of environment, but I think that where organizations should really spend their energy is building trust and connections between those in a less formal setting where you are not throwing them into, you know, immediately doing some feedback sessions. And so that's really where we've been focusing some of our engagement activities around. So we're wanting to break down any silos that might exist, whether intentionally or not. I think that one of the things that we observe all the time is that people get so busy that it's so easy to kind of put your blinders on and focus on the task at hand rather than thinking that you really are part of this larger structure, this larger ecosystem, and that in order to make things happen successfully, you need to really be co collaborative.
Michelle Thackray (12:34):
And so one of the things that we're trying to do this year is to host periodic networking events for various leadership levels throughout the organization. It gives folks some opportunities to come together to have a meal, perhaps have some icebreaker questions to go through. And we really are intentional about ensuring that when folks are engaging, that they are not sitting with just their team members, that they're actually sitting at a table with folks who work across the, either entire division or across the university, so that they can start to get that better connection and build those relationships. I think as bad as Covid was for so many reasons, one of the best things that really shook out of it is that folks in these larger organizations perhaps had to pull together in a way that they never have before. And certainly when we were starting to come out of the response and recovery phase, one of the things that I heard from a lot of my colleagues was, this was so great for understanding who within the university I can call on when I have certain problems
Michelle Thackray (13:43):
And it's no longer just this org chart on the website. I now have the faces and the names of those who I need to rely on. I don't need to wait for a crisis to unfold in order for me to have those connections. Now I can reach out more regularly and, and continue to invest in those relationships. And I do think that that's so important for people to be able to feel comfortable leaning into the honest and difficult conversations is that you have that connectivity, you have that relationship, and you've already established that trust so that you can understand where someone's coming from and you can have hopefully the best of intentions.
Troy Blaser (14:23):
Absolutely. I mean, if the trust isn't there, folks just aren't going to listen to the feedback they might have suspicions about, well what are the motivations for this person giving me this particular feedback? But if the trust has been developed ahead of time, then they're in a position to say, okay, this person has my best interest in mind when they're saying something difficult to take in. So I, I really like that idea of, hey, before we go into the formal feedback process, let's work on trust, let's work on communication and building up some of those relationships that because of covid have started to, to grow and to get stronger.
Michelle Thackray (14:57):
Yeah. And I think, um, another thing that is so critical is the way that an organization positions itself in relation to feedback, right? So if you're perhaps part of a toxic culture or a, a rough environment where feedback is perceived as a threat or an attack, it really is the responsibility of the organization to create an environment where they have embedded in their structures and their processes, these continual opportunities for feedback loops. And not only that, they, they create those opportunities, but then that the, the folks who are receiving that information are actually utilizing it and then providing information to the sender of the feedback that they have leveraged it. And that they have taken advantage of it. And so there are so many easy ways that you can do that anytime that you have a business process really so easy to get some quick information out there for people to be able to do a pulse check to let you know what's going well, what could be better, what are some of the pain points I'm experiencing. And I think when you're focusing it too on the process, rather than the person from an organizational standpoint that's sending a clear message that like, we want to be better, we want to keep working and fine tuning these things and focusing first on process when you're trying to build and lean into that culture around psychological safety and providing feedback to individuals about their performance, that can be a really good way to kind of softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (16:25):
So who's the intended audience for the leadership development program? Um, is it administrative only? Are you getting into the academic side as well?
Michelle Thackray (16:34):
Yeah, that's a great question. So since it's a pilot program, we'll first start with ourselves and test the efficacy of it, see if it's popular, and then grow it from there. I think ideally from the competency model building perspective, we want to make sure that we're generating buy-in across the university that way the competency model is not geared toward just our division, but instead can be easily applied across the university. So that part I think will certainly involve all of the executive leaders and perhaps even some of their folks who specialize in this area or feel strongly about leadership development. And then I think from there we would essentially use the, the division that I work within to run through the pilot program and to test out the ebbs and flows and give us some feedback on how we can make it better before growing it more broadly across campus.
Troy Blaser (17:25):
That's really cool. Have there been any particular challenges or obstacles that you've either you have faced or you foresee coming in terms of developing it?
Michelle Thackray (17:35):
You know, obviously wanting to make sure that you've got the proper funding in place to be able to grow something so that it can be robust. And then to be mindful of the fact that if all of the funding doesn't come through that there are still ways that you can make progress and thinking about your multi-year strategy based on the funding solution that you have in front of you. I also think that you need to think about your other resources and your structure. So thinking about who are the people within the organization that can help collaborate on this piece, who can provide insight, expertise, guidance, who might actually be interested in serving as a leadership coach if they already have certification. It's also about taking advantage of the internal programs that already exist within the university. We're very lucky to have the Jones Business School and Glasscock Continuing Education.
Michelle Thackray (18:28):
So those are two areas that we can also lean into for some additional support and resources. So yeah, I think that those are some areas that I would certainly want to keep a pulse on. And then of course, thinking about the structures and the processes for how you're actually going to build up the program, how you're going to raise awareness, how you're going to keep things organized, and making sure that people are getting what they need as they go through the program. I don't think I probably need to tell you that a 360 is a really valuable tool, but it is really only going to meet its full return on investment when it's followed up with some solid coaching to hold people accountable and to make sure that they're bringing those action plans to fruition once they've received that feedback.
Troy Blaser (19:12):
Yeah, I was going to ask you, some organizations will use a 360 and approach the processing of that feedback in different ways, either with a specific one-on-one coaching over a period of time, or maybe some peer group coaching where the participants are helping one another process that and make plans or potentially even sort of a self-service model where, you know, just the report itself is kind of walking you through that. It sounds like you're, you're leaning towards those one-on-one coaching experiences.
Michelle Thackray (19:42):
I think it will end up being a bit of a blend with the exception of the, the last one you had mentioned of it being self-service. So I think that we have, um, a really great opportunity for us to lean into the one-on-one coaching, especially as we're starting to grow the program and, and really just pilot it. And then as it becomes more robust and perhaps more popular and maybe there's a greater demand, then I can see the fluctuation leaning into more of the group coaching if that makes the most sense for the resources that we have. I think that you always have to weigh the benefits and the disadvantages and thinking about time and effort because I think many of our internal coaches have full-time jobs that they're still going to have to make sure that they're maintaining. So thinking about what makes the most sense for the university and how we can still best meet the need to make sure that leaders and aspiring leaders have the tools that they need in order to be successful.
Troy Blaser (20:39):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, at the beginning of our conversation, you shared a story with us about the time when you received feedback. I wonder, as you've worked with different people over the years, different organizations and different clients and different individuals, is there a time or an experience when you've been able to observe someone receiving feedback that caused a point of inflection in, in their career, in their life, whether for good or for bad. Sometimes they're, it's a bad feedback experience that is noteworthy. But is there a story that you could share with us as you've been involved in helping others receive their feedback?
Michelle Thackray (21:11):
Yeah, there are actually a couple that come to mind. And I think the ones that probably stick with me the most are when I have seen folks who are on the precipice of a big transition. And so oftentimes I have worked with leaders or been fortunate to be around leaders who are kind of nearing the end of their career and getting ready for their next steps. Um, and in some cases that might be full retirement, in other cases it might be, you know, a soft launch into retirement where they kind of start to do their own thing and you know, maybe go into consulting or some independent contracting and I was working with a really brilliant coach at the time who was relaying to me and another colleague about some of the ways that they like to help position the conversations with those who are transitioning to those different moments within their careers, particularly when they're at the end of their career. And you know, what, she will often kind of position the question and especially if they're kind of grappling with this next stage. So maybe some folks don't necessarily want to retire because it's the unknown. In some ways it's, it's like starting all over again in a space that is brand new. And I think that it's just not always welcome. 'cause when you've been working full time since you've been in your twenties, that can be a really tough transition. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (22:36):
It's a space that's brand new and that may not have any boundaries yet.
Michelle Thackray (22:41):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So it's just like nebulous and uncertain and highly ambiguous. And so I think what this coach tries to do is to really get them to focus on what's within their control right now. And one of the things that she'll say to them is, if you could only be remembered for the state that you are leaving the organization in, what does that look like for you? And then what ends up happening over the course of that conversation is that not only do they start to really reflect about how do I want to leave this for the next person who's going to come in behind me and like, what would I want to be remembered for if people are only going to remember me for the last year that I've worked here? But it also starts to, I think, tap into what are your intrinsic values? And what are the things that matter most to you? Because the way that you kind of respond to that question, I think will be telling in a variety of facets of your life. And so what I love about that too is that it's a bit like giving feedback without actually giving feedback. It's opening the door and giving people the space to be reflective so that they can be like their own guiding light and I think that that's really powerful
Troy Blaser (23:54):
That, uh, I mean that's a question that I, I want to be asking myself as I go along too, right? I mean, because like you said, it gives them a chance to kind of focus on maybe the last year of their career or that they've been with that particular organization. But when you first brought up that question, I'm like, well, I want to be thinking about that question now so that at the end of my career I will have hopefully done the things right. That's right. Leave the organization in a, in a state that I want to leave it in. I think that's fantastic. I think that it's not often that you think about what does feedback look like for someone approaching the end of their career. That's right. And, and helping move through that transition from working to some form of retirement, whatever that looks like. Yeah.
Michelle Thackray (24:39):
And it's, it's a good reminder too that we're getting feedback all of the time in all sorts of ways, right. Like, whether it's when you're driving your car and someone's honking at you because you've done something wrong or someone's in pain like whatever it is, we're receiving information all the time. It's all up to us about how we use that information to ideally internalize it and hopefully make improvements. And I think that even if you are in an organization perhaps that doesn't have that culture around feedback centricity, I think that there are probably ways that you can try to, to bring it into other aspects of your life. Or even within your own team to make sure that you're queuing into that information and making good decisions and being very much value driven.
Troy Blaser (25:26):
It seems like it comes up almost every episode of Simply Feedback. We have a catchphrase here at Learning Bridge, we talk about it all the time of receive feedback graciously and act on it visibly. And you know, you kind of alluded to that acting on it visibly earlier as well in those processes as you're just gathering information about the simple business processes to help people understand that not only did you hear what they had to say, but you're making a change that's visible to them. And maybe that same kind of thing can apply when we're driving on the road and someone gives us feedback about how we're driving. Right.
Michelle Thackray (25:57):
That's right. That's right.
Troy Blaser (26:00):
Well, so you've, you've gone through a change in your employment moving from Georgia Tech to Rice, you know, in the last year or so. Keeping our audience in mind, is there some advice that you could give to listeners, kind of maybe they're going through something similar, a change in their career, or maybe they're, they're sitting in their organization going, I want to implement a leadership development program here at Acme Company. Is there something that you've learned as you've kind of had this initiative that you could share with, uh, our listeners?
Michelle Thackray (26:32):
Yeah, I think my best bit of advice around this might be to really focus on the concept of co-creation. So to really think about who are the different stakeholder groups? Who are the people that I want to generate, buy-in with upfront, early on, get folks on board. And when you're thinking through that, I think it's really important to stratify those groups between who are the decision makers, the ones who are going to be able to help remove any obstacles that you might have, or they're going to give you the green light. And then going down a level and thinking about, okay, so then who are the ones who are going to help me get this up off the ground and running? And who are the influencers who are going to help make this program stick? And those are the, the folks that you really want to make sure that you're bringing in early and often that you are being transparent as you progress, and that you yourself are opening the door to receive feedback throughout the process so that you can be flexible in your implementation.
Michelle Thackray (27:40):
And that's really why I love the concept of pilot programs and strongly encourage anyone who's thinking about launching something like this to maybe consider taking that avenue because there is something about when people hear the word pilot, it's this inherent understanding that this is a test environment. And you know, we're going to try to work out the kinks and we're going to get it wrong on the way to getting it right. And I think that those are the things that I would really focus on to make sure that you've got the right people sitting around the table, that you're bringing them along with you in the process, and that you're giving yourself and one another a lot of grace to get it right eventually. Um, and to be flexible in that process.
Troy Blaser (28:20):
I love that idea of co-creation because it now all of a sudden, I'm not just a single individual in an enormous company, but I've thought, okay, who can I reach out to to help me with this? And now I've got a team of people and like you pointed out to, to stratify it, to put them into different areas of responsibility or areas where they will be most effective in whatever role they're going to play in the co-creation process. And you've, you've brought up a couple of times the idea of doing a pilot program. I love that. My day job is to write software and we will often be working on a project and think, you know, we're trying to plan out every minute detail of, well, what's this page supposed to look like and where should everything be placed? And sometimes it gets to the point where you say, let's build something and then we'll go from there. You know? So that idea of just getting something done that you can react to rather than spending all your time upfront to get it a hundred percent right the very first time.
Michelle Thackray (29:15):
Yeah. I think that that's right. You don't want perfection to be the enemy of progress. And that can happen so often in an organization when we get hesitant or concerned about launching a brand new program and, and wanting to make sure that it's perfect before it gets out there. But I think with feedback and leadership and people development, people want it. Right? Yeah. And most people are happy to be part of the process to make it better as they're moving through it. So taking advantage of that eagerness and that willingness to learn is going to be very important for folks who want to get something out there quickly and want to take advantage of whatever environment that they're in.
Troy Blaser (29:53):
Yeah. Well, Michelle, I have enjoyed our conversation and hearing about your projects, and it sounds like you have some exciting times ahead. I wish you the best of luck that you have the funding, that your pilot test is successful, that you're able to make the tweaks that you want to make to really then roll it out and be able to, you know, feedback can be such a valuable gift to people and you'll be able to help them have those kinds of turning points even that maybe you had early on in, in your higher education. If people want to know more, if they want to continue the conversation with you, is that something you'd be open to?
Michelle Thackray (30:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely. You can find me on Rice's, internal and external boards. Just by searching my name and Rice University. I'll pop right up and, and you can feel free to send me an email.
Troy Blaser (30:38):
Awesome. Fantastic. Well, thanks again. I've, I've really enjoyed our conversation. It's been wonderful to have you with us today. Thank you so much.
Michelle Thackray (30:45):
No, thank you, Troy. It's been so much fun.
